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As an experiment, I took of the 1.5" (seems more like 1") wool topper I have to see if I could feel the foam more. I left on the wool filled mattress pad. There was a definite difference. I could feel the body molding of the memory foam a bit more, but I also felt like I was sinking in more (too much) and it also felt a bit warmer. I even had a twinge of lower back pain. At 2am I put the topper back on, and slept better. A bit deader feel, but firmer and cooler. I am fairly convinved this is a real phenomenom. I have done this once or twice before with similiar results. Possibly because the memory foam does not heat up as much? Or because the topper pulls tight? Still can't explain it. So, adding a wool topper (at least my version) might help those trying to firm up a mattress a bit with the bonus of making it more breathable. As a further experiment, I might trying moving it down the stack a couple of inches (below the memory foam and above the latex) to see what that is like. My guess is that it will be somewhere in between. This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by sandman
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The Simmons NXG 575 has 3/4" of latex in the quilting over 2" next generation memory foam over 3" 28 ILD talalay and I found it to be really really comfortable in my lay on mattress test. I didn't lay on it for a long time because I didn't want to get tempted too much in this direction. I think though that it (or some variant of the general layering) may be a perfect combination for some people. The 3/4 inch of quiltable latex would still allow enough heat to go through for the memory foam to conform but it would lead to less of a sinking in feeling similar to a wool pad leading to memory foam not sinking in as much. This is a good thing for many people as you would not be sleeping "in" the mattress as much. The quiltable latex also feels really nice (even though it is Dunlop to my knowledge so it won't tear). The latex under the memory foam would supply both softness and support (how much of each would depend on the ild) under the memory foam. For some I think this could be an ideal combination and if I wanted memory foam in my mattress, this or some variation of it in terms of thickness is what I would have done. It really does feel great (at least to me). Memory foam when activated is very soft (10-20 ild but usually only up to 16 or so and mostly around 12-15). The difference between the memory foam and latex of the same softness or ILD is that memory foam has little support since it just keeps "melting away" as you go further and further into it with little pushback while latex gives pushback (support) when it is compressed. Latex has a much higher support ratio in other words (the ratio between the weights required to compress a foam to 25% of it's height and 75% of it's height). Memory foam always needs something underneath it to provide support even though it does a great job in distributing pressure. Some of the newer HR polyfoams also have high support ratios which means they can be both soft and supportive like latex. This and the fact that they are usually more durable is why they're used so much in the upper layers of many mattresses these days but thats a whole other issue again. A smaller layer of memory foam over latex (as in your case) would probably have a similar feeling as it would supply a feeling of plushness and conform but you would quickly go through it and get to the softness and support of the latex underneath. It would feel softer than latex alone but because the layer was so thin it would also not give that sinking into the mattress feeling typical of a thicker top layer of memory foam. This experience and wanting a feel similar to this in an all latex mattress is why I decided to go with quiltable latex over a relatively soft (22 ild) layer of latex in my mattress. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix, have you found a high density breathable memory foam? I have had trouble finding the right combination. I have the 4lb mem-cool from overstock that does seem not as hot, but lacks density and support. I have the Senus that has more density and support, but is less breathable / hotter. An older piece I got at Costco years ago seemed to have reasonable support and I don't remember getting hot with it. Maybe because I was using it on top of a firm innerspring. It is a smaller size than I use now, so that is not an option. I measured the density recently, and was surprised that it was a bit below 4. I tried the new gel infused foam at Costco, and that is definitely softer (sink in a lot) than most. Therefore, good for pressure relief, but I can only get it to work with 1" of latex over it. I orded the 5lb Aerus Natual from Sam's club, hoping that is a good combination of the 2. However, it only comes in 2.5", so if it is on the softer side, it probably won't work. I have flexiblity to make it firmer below, so I am hoping it works. I will be posting results after I receive it and give it a try. |
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Aerus 4lb is all over the internet up to 4" but like you the thickest 5lb I have seen is 2.5 inches ... at least lately. Foamex makes it up to 8 lbs so they are probably reserving the denser stuff (or even thicker 5lb stuff) for mattress manufacturers for some reason. While I don't have enough real world experience actually laying on them to really know for sure, based on my research and feedback I have seen, the Aerus is the only one I would really trust to be breathable. Foamex (and people they have licensed to) is the only one in North America that is using VPF to my knowledge and I don't think the foam from Carpenter, Flexible foam, Bergad, BASF, Bayer, Vita or any of the others are as breathable. Don't know this for sure though. To my knowledge the 4lb is 12 ild and the 5 lb is 13 ild. I would suspect that the support ratio is also higher in that it comes back a little quicker although I would still not consider using it as a support layer. I'm still doing some research into the whole memory foam issue trying to add to what hayesdb did earlier but so far ... IMO ... Aerus is the best of breed. It's confused a lot in that there are a lot of Chinese suppliers that are making memory foam up to 8 lbs (once you translate their metric stats) and mimicking the Tempur 5.3 lb and others (just go to alibaba and sites like it) and there are also American manufacturers making good foam in Chinese factories (Classic brands, Sleep Science etc). That's all further complicated by the fact that so many mattress makers are re-branding their memory foam and claiming it as their own. Memory foam in general is not nearly as easy to get good and specific information about as latex. I'd sure like to find out someone's real world experience with NuFORM or others like it as well. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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Latexco is also doing something with a latex/visco combination but it looks like it's just a layer of each bonded together rather than a true mixed material. Latexco Latexco’s new process combines the natural attributes of latex with other elements typically found in mattress designs. Without glue or adhesives, the process creates hybrid composite layers of latex/polyurethane, latex/visco-elastic, latex/fiber and other elements. “When two elements are combined, the physical properties of both components are enhanced, adding to the ‘wow factor’ feel,” the company says. For example, latex and visco-elastic, available in quilting rolls or toppers, are merged and microperforated, creating a layer that adds the plush feel of latex to the slow recovery of visco. Another benefit is that the new composites offer, essentially, two SKUs in one component because they can be reversed, the company says. Phone 866-528-3926 or |
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Thanks Phoenix. I am looking to use it as a comfort layer not a support layer, replacing my 1" of mem-cool and 1" of Sensus. Maybe needing 1 inch less of latex and no wool topper as well? We shall see. I hope the 5lb. Aerus is a good combo. I think the Overstock mem-cool might be the same as the old 4lb. Aerus. I prefer a bit more density than that. I had tried a Costco mattress from Sleep Science with 2" of 5lb. on top. I actually like the feel of that, but the rest of it was too thick and firm. I called them to see if they sell toppers alone, but they did not. They have a new mattress with 7lb. and 6lb. on top (I think) to compete with the upper end TPs. Would be interesting to try that. Of course the TP foam is nice, but very expensive in topper form (I think you can get 1" and 3" of the 5.3 lb). Not sure how breathable it is. I am one of the few people that has actually tried the Nuform. I think it was 2" of 28ILD that I was able to demo. It was too firm for a comfort layer. Kind of like sleeping on clay. So, neither fish nor fowl. It was okay with some softer latex over it, but that kind of defeats the purpose. Probably why it has not caught on. Not sure if they make a lower ILD version, but that might be better. |
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Thanks for the feedback on the NuFORM. So far you are the only one I've heard from that actually used it to sleep on (as opposed to the pillows). One of the mattress manufacturers I talked to that was using it said "people seem to like it" but that was pretty vague to me and he also told me that Latex International told him that there weren't a lot of people who were using it as much as he was. There are quite a few using it in their layers but not on top. Their website doesn't list any range of ILD's like it does for all their other foam so I suspect it may only come in one firmness. Thanks Phoenix |
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sandman wrote: Phoenix, have you found a high density breathable memory foam? I have had trouble finding the right combination. I have the 4lb mem-cool from overstock that does seem not as hot, but lacks density and support. I have the Senus that has more density and support, but is less breathable / hotter. An older piece I got at Costco years ago seemed to have reasonable support and I don't remember getting hot with it. Maybe because I was using it on top of a firm innerspring. It is a smaller size than I use now, so that is not an option. I measured the density recently, and was surprised that it was a bit below 4. I tried the new gel infused foam at Costco, and that is definitely softer (sink in a lot) than most. Therefore, good for pressure relief, but I can only get it to work with 1" of latex over it. I orded the 5lb Aerus Natual from Sam's club, hoping that is a good combination of the 2. However, it only comes in 2.5", so if it is on the softer side, it probably won't work. I have flexiblity to make it firmer below, so I am hoping it works. I will be posting results after I receive it and give it a try. Sandman, RMM had Aerus don't they? Just wondered about price since you have to be a member of Sam's Club. |
| It's amazing what you can find out about a mattress (In this case the sleep comfort multi zone) through a patent application. It's also interesting what people patent in an effort to stop what would otherwise be fairly easy to duplicate. |
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Leo3, I believe RMM only has the 4lb Aerus. I decided that I wanted the 5lb. The only place I have seen it is on Amazon and at Sam's club. You are right that you have to have a Sam's club membership. However, I think you can cancel the membership and get your many back (all or prorata depending on how long you keep it). I don't actually shop there, because the closest is probably 15 miles. I am a bigger fan of Costco. Still, it is cheaper at Sam's if you add in the membership ($40) and I believe they have a 100% return policy. Phoenix, I can see that they would use the Nuform at a lower level. It does not push back like regular latex, but has support. However, as I said a bit too firm and clay like for me (you end up in a rut) on the top level. I did kind of like it below the convoluted Flobed topper, but was not sure how to integrate into the whole mattress. |
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I moved the wool topper below the 2" of memory foam last night. That was firmer than with no topper at all, but less firm than with the topper on top. No real surprise there. It was better than with no topper at all (less sinking in too much). I could feel the memory foam plushness better. No surprise there either. It seemed warmer than with the topper on top. No real surprise there either. However, the last few nights have been warmer than average, so that is a contributing factor. I think I will try without the 1" Sensus and without the wool topper. Less heat causing foam, less memory foam (so firmer), but less firmness from topper as well. |