Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Why is mattress selection close to impossible for a anyone with low back pain? why are mattress makers using different names for the same mattresses in different stores? Why are they making it so hard to compare mattresses? Is this some kind of scam? Why is it that man has gone to moon but mattress makers can't make a mattress for people with low back pain? I have a herniated disk and wake up with aches and extremely tired every day. Life is hell or close to it. It can't get any worse. thanks for honest replies. This message was modified Jan 25, 2010 by lowbacpain
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Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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in theory a properly designed independent coil (pocket coil, marshall coil, any name you wanna use) is best for everyone. However because most of them are not made properly this doesn't always work out to be the case. And unlike Latex which you sometimes can actually buy based on specific firmness levels a spring you cannot. Because there are so many variables it is impossible to say one is better than another, much like how if we had a much heavier person we would probably recommend they start with a higher ILD rating than someone of lower body weight would typically use, you cannot do this with a spring system in the same way. With coils it is first of all impossible to compare apples to apples when we are comparing one design vs another. I will try my best to illustrate why its almost impossible to compare spring rates (durability) and contact area (pressure relief) especially when comparing one type versus another. Lets take a quick trip to fantasy land for a couple of examples. Let's make up a couple of scenarios here for coils and try to compare them, lets also say for the sake of comparison that there is literally NO upholstery material on any of these springs, and that they are all queen size mattresses: Scenario A: We have two coils, both of them are a classic bonnell coil, hourglass shaped spring (wider at the top and bottom than in the middle). Both of them are 15 cm tall and have 6 turns in each coil, both of them use helical lacing wires that run side to side across the surface of the mattress, both have a coil count of 608 in a queen size, one has a 14.50 gauge of wire and the other one is a 15.5 gauge of wire, both are made in the same factory and made from the same quality of steel. In this case we know that the only variable is the gauge of wire, which even though we don't know the actual spring rates we at least know the 14.5 gauge of wire will provide a higher spring rate and be slightly more durable. It would also in theory because you wouldn't sink into it as much, provide less contact area. You might make a recommendation on one coil over the other based on the sleepers weight. However if any one of these other variables changed, it would be much harder to objectively compare. Scenario B: Two coils, both 15 cm tall, 6 turns in the coil, coil count 608, 14.5 gauge of wire, same quality of steel. Now one of them is an open bonnell coil like the last scenario, hour glass shaped, and lacing wires running side to side. The other coil is an independent coil placed inside a cotton shell and hand tied in the middle to attach adjacent springs, no helical wires used, and a barrell shaped coil (slightly wider in the middle than it is on the top and bottom). In this case we don't even really know for sure which coil provides the highest spring rates overall. Reason being that helical lacing wires artificially raise the spring rates at the surface of the spring system, furthermore both springs use what is called 'progressive' rates, this is because the diameter of the coil is different at different compression levels. An hour glass shaped coil actually becomes progressively weaker as it becomes compressed because the middle portion of the springs is a smaller diameter. A barrell shaped pocket coil although weaker initially will become progressively stronger because of the wider diameter in the middle portion of the spring. So we don't even know which coil is more durable in this case, all we know is that you will probably get a lot better conformity from the independent spring which would help it shape into harder to reach areas like lower back and provide more contact with the body. As complicated as all this may sound, it is actually somewhat simplified. But lets just say it is very difficult to objectify what springs are better because it also depends on what your needs are, some people might place conformity of the coil higher up on the list than overall durability. This message was modified Jan 29, 2010 by budgy
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Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Thanks for the explanation. I agree that pocket coils are great - in theory. But my experience with Simmons about 15 years ago was that after only a year or so they began to kill me. And that was BEFORE I had such a bad back. At that time I had only a mildly bad back.  I then read that what happened with Simmons coils at that time was that they would come loose from each other because they were tied very delicately and so the springs would migrate and thus, back pain. I heard they changed their way of tying them and are better now, but that does not jibe with the tons of negative reviews you can find on the net re Simmons. As I understand it my Englander has Bonnell coils of 12.5 gauge tempered steel but honestly I never got a definitive answer on that so I don't really know. One store said "I think they're Bonnell" and another store said "I don't know". One store said "They have x # of coils in the Queen" and another said "they have y # of coils in the Queen" and none could tell me how many in the Twin which I was buying! This is the main problem with mattress buying: they won't tell people what they are made of. The dealers even claim they don't know and it is difficult for them to find out! The mattress store guy who was on here for awhile made the assertion that most people don't really want to know anyway, and the facts would only confuse them! Ha! I do agree that not everyone would know what the specs meant. But still, I think we should have the right to know and what would it hurt to just have a print out available - at least if asked for! - that showed how much foam, what kind of foam, what kind of springs, how many springs, etc... Actually I think it should be required to be put right on the label or at least on a paper that comes with each mattress. Sorry, sometimes I go into rant mode on the subject of mattress stores! |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Im sure it would be really confusing and people would probably run out the doors if I just told them what the specs were on a mattress. like someone lays down on a bed and says 'this feels good what's in it?" 1218 independent pocket coils, 15.5 gauge of wire, 12cm tall, 7 turns in the coil, foam encased, 2" foam underneath the coils, 2" "firm foam", 2 1" layers of soft foam, half inch latex, half inch memory foam, 2" super soft convoluted foam, 33oz hollo fibre! But what people should be made aware of...at some point. 1. Coil mattresses (from normal brands) are quilted with various layers of polyurethane foam. 2. Polyurethane foam breaks down. 3. The more polyurethane foam you have the more serious your permanent body indentations will be and the sooner they show up. 4. A half inch of memory foam or latex does nothing to prevent the other 6" of poly foam in the pillow top from breaking down. From here, I can show people alternatives. I myself am not a specs guy, I know the specs very well, and actually so well to the point that I realize the important specs are never provided by a manufacturer which is how long will the mattress last, how well will it breathe, will it conform to the body and relieve pressure, will it be firm enough to keep your heavier regions from sinking too much? These are things that a spec sheet alone cannot tell you. When it does come down to buying a coil mattress which quite frankly is the most confusing type of mattress to buy, you should buy the TYPE of coil that works best with your body, you shouldn't buy the coil count or the gauge of wire. This message was modified Jan 30, 2010 by budgy
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Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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cityskies wrote: Budgy and others, do you have thoughts on Shifman, basic level (e.g., the Shifman Chateau, which is a firm all-cotton innerspring with minimum padding)? I heard the original family sold the company several years ago and since then the quality has suffered, but haven't been able to verify. Am trying to decide between this and a horsehair innerspring. Just thought I would give you another reply on this one....I think if you want to get a really good quality American made mattress and mostly filled with cotton batting. You really ought to check out a brand called Royal-Pedic. http://www.royal-pedic.com/ One of their reps actually made a visit to my store to see if we would carry their product. I have to say if I didn't have spacing restrictions at the moment I was ready to floor atleast a couple of their beds. And some day I may re-consider the possibility. I had access to their american pricing sheets, I think they would work out to be much better priced than a Shifman and are truly made to a very similar standard of quality. I know that they have been regarded by many to be the best mattress made in the US. They also make organic versions of most of their beds if this is a concern to you as well. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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It does look like Royal-pedic uses high quality materials: cotton, wool, natural latex, a high coil count of double tempered steel. So, I guess there are some quality innersprings out there that most people aren't even aware of. You just have to look outside the major brands. I assume they cost a fair amount more, but to a certain extent you do get what you pay for. Out of curiosity, do you know the range of what a queen size would sell for in the retail market? |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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i think they are probably going to be high 2000's or so to start.(that could be for the organic version though that would cost more) but thats a far cry better than the over $5000 for the Shifman queen I found. yeah actually I just found a place that sells it. http://organicsleepproducts.com/rp-all-cotton-mattress-set.html |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Dear lowbacpain, I know exactly what you're going through and I also feel your pain. I have been in the mattress manufacturing business for 20+ years. We have used latex foam, memory foam, innerspring units, gel, polyurethane foam, cotton, and a mixture of all of these in one form or the other. What I discovered is, that there is no one make or model of any mattress that will fit everyone's needs. For example, it has been my experience that combining a convoluted medium ILD poly-foam or latex in a variety of thicknesses on top of a 12-1/2 gauge innerspring unit gives you the best of both worlds when you suffer from back pain. I don't know where you live, but you could probably find a "Mom and Pop" factory direct in your area that could be of great help to you. Good luck! This message was modified Jan 31, 2010 by brothersbedding
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Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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budgy wrote: Im sure it would be really confusing and people would probably run out the doors if I just told them what the specs were on a mattress. like someone lays down on a bed and says 'this feels good what's in it?" 1218 independent pocket coils, 15.5 gauge of wire, 12cm tall, 7 turns in the coil, foam encased, 2" foam underneath the coils, 2" "firm foam", 2 1" layers of soft foam, half inch latex, half inch memory foam, 2" super soft convoluted foam, 33oz hollo fibre! But what people should be made aware of...at some point. 1. Coil mattresses (from normal brands) are quilted with various layers of polyurethane foam. 2. Polyurethane foam breaks down. 3. The more polyurethane foam you have the more serious your permanent body indentations will be and the sooner they show up. 4. A half inch of memory foam or latex does nothing to prevent the other 6" of poly foam in the pillow top from breaking down. From here, I can show people alternatives. I myself am not a specs guy, I know the specs very well, and actually so well to the point that I realize the important specs are never provided by a manufacturer which is how long will the mattress last, how well will it breathe, will it conform to the body and relieve pressure, will it be firm enough to keep your heavier regions from sinking too much? These are things that a spec sheet alone cannot tell you. When it does come down to buying a coil mattress which quite frankly is the most confusing type of mattress to buy, you should buy the TYPE of coil that works best with your body, you shouldn't buy the coil count or the gauge of wire. Budgy, can you expand on this statement: "you should buy the TYPE of coil that works best with your body, you shouldn't buy the coil count or the gauge of wire. " How does one know what type of coil works best with one's body? Are you saying that in a given line, say Serta, that their cheaper mattress with X number of coils is not going to have better springs than the more expensive one with more coils per same size? I always thought that - given a similar mattress in all other aspects - more coils was better in a Bonnel type coil mattress, for example. Also, I agree that the average Jane Doe wasn't want to know the specs of the mattress (coil count, ILD of foam, etc.). But I do think that if they began to print them on the mattress and made them available, a good percentage of people who I will call "smart consumers" would pay attention to that, learn about it and it would help them make a decision between one mattress and another. Do you disagree with that? I mean, you could be right. Another mattress sales guy who was here for awhile said the same thing: that people do not need or want to know the specs, it will only confuse them and mean nothing to them. My thought is that its a bit like computers: no one originally knew what RAM was or what chip speed was or what different types of RAM mean, but nowadays a good percentage of people have learned about these specs and what they mean, and certainly it helps those who know, choose the best computer for the price, by being able to compare them. I do realize that with mattresses it is all about how it feels and the things you listed are of course the MOST important basic things to know. But I still think they should list the "ingredients" for those who want to know and want to learn. I think if they did, eventually people would have a more sophisticated understanding of what mattresses are made of and what makes one better than another. THEN they have to lay on it, etc... Just my 2 cents. |
Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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I guess I was really just saying that the 4 different types of coils all work quite differently regardless of the specs. Pocket coils, offset coils, bonnell coils, or continuous. I personally don't carry really any continuous coil products because they are very cheap. I sometimes even simplify things even more than this for people because realistically offset, bonnell and continuous springs are all similar in the aspect that the coils hinge along a lacing wire, and a pocket coil does not use a lacing wire. So I sometimes lump all 3 of the others together for simplicity sake. Comparing coil count and gauge of wire within one type of coil is somewhat fair and reasonable to do, however you cannot compare coil count and gauge of wire directly between 2 inherently different designs. This message was modified Feb 1, 2010 by budgy
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Re: Why is there infinite trouble selecting a mattress for person with low back pain?
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Absolutely fascinating thread guys! Constant low back pain is so debilitating it is just awful. I suffered with it for a long time myself. I know exactly what you are talking about. Doctors sent me to physical therapists who hurt my ligaments with their testing, and promoted back exercises to help me strengthen my back. Did not help. I knew in my gut it was from the bed(s) I slept on. Went through quite a few, spent way too much money uselessly. Felt horribly frustrated. Where to turn...every bed promises what it does not deliver. I was going through new beds every three months. My husband thought I was kinda nuts, called me Princess and the Pea. Beds didn't bother him. Finally visited a hotel where to my great surprise, slept on a mattress that healed my back in two nights. It was amazing. I did my research and found it had offset coils, and a box spring with springs. It was an S brand, but I was not going to pay $5K for one similar to it, no way. I had one made to my specs. I like it, my back is good. I did not choose the foam that I knew I needed so have had to work with it a bit, but my mistake. Overall, great bed. Find a mom and pop bedmaker and get one made that you like. Or do mattress surgery if you have good coils and a brave soul. My mattress surgery result is at my stepdaughter's house...she loves the bed, but I did not care for marshall coils. Cutting it open did no damage other than cosmetic. As to why it is this way...profit, baby profit! It's all about right now, in hand, promise a better mousetrap, profit!!! They don't care about how we sleep really. Good luck. Kait |