Another mattress surgery

[stacytr]

We had a lovely looking Stearns and Foster king sized bed that was about 6 or 7 yrs old -- looked like this



But it was sagging and we were both hating it Thanks to this board we finally got the courage to just peek inside
Holy cow what are we thinking -- this was an expensive mattress!
Here's what's under the hood
and another look
This is what was sewn/quilted into the cover we just tossed this layer.
Here are the interior layers
Here's a not great view of the springs there's a poly batting over them and a rigid styrofoam like (but not as brittle) layer around the perimeter of the mattress -- I assume to protect the cover from the springs.
We also tossed one very thin interior layer -- it just ripped in my hands
We have a 2" memory foam topper from overstock on top and left in the thickest foam layers -- they seem to be some kind of high density foam and are pretty firm. After the surgery, the mattress felt better at first -- but now it just feels way too firm -- even with the memory foam. And I can't believe I'm writing this, but I hate it even more now. I'm ready to just buy a Sam's club or Costco or Ikea mattress -- I'm scared of spending $400-500 on toppers and not getting it right when I can start from scratch with a new bed for around that price.
We aren't sure what to get next -- we had planned on some sort of latex topper from foambymail, but aren't sure which thickness or ILD to get to make the bed more comfy. I would LOVE to get some opinions -- should we pull all the foam and put in latex (and probably the memory foam too) -- or get the Costco Sleep Science on sale for $550, or the Aerus at Sam's club for about the same price, or....?

 

[sandman]

As you can see, the foam they use is pretty much junk. Low density polyurethene that does not last.
Adding latex should definitely help. Without it, you are probably bottoming out on the coils, which are probably pretty firm. Over my Sealy coils (not sure how they would compare in firmness to yours) I have 2" of 32 talalay latex + 1" 24 talalay latex + 1" 5.9lb. memory foam + 1" 19 ILD latex.
I think you probably need at least 2" of base latex in the 28-32 range. I prefer the Latex International (which costs more), but FBM might work. Above that you probably need 2-3" of more comfort layers. Your memory foam might work, but you also might need a transition piece of latex around 24 ILD.
Unfortunately, it takes some trial and error, depending on how picky you are. The upside is that you will then have some fairly high quality foam that can last pretty long. Not sure the quality of your memory foam though, so that might be an issue. I have found that just using 1" of memory foam works best for me, but 2" is probably okay if the base below is pretty firm.

 

[SleepLikeADog]

Thanks for the copious pic's stacytr, that is a stack of poly foam! We have a ten year old Stearns & Foster queen the wife won't let me tear into because "it's not that uncomfortable."
I ordered a FBM 3" 100% Natural Talalay Latex Foam topper [ILD of 20—24] over their 5" HD Poly base [ILD 36] for our RV and it's too firm for both of us. I'm about 215 lbs and the wife (on anonymous forums) is about 135 lbs. I'm adding a 2" layer of FBM [20 ILD] and a thinner cover in the hopes that 5" of latex will cradle better.
To complete your surgery a 2" layer of FBM soft [ILD 20] under a 2" layer of FBM [ILD 32] over your mattress/box springs would be much more plush and supportive than my 8" on a board set-up or your original poly. ($468)
I notice FBM lists the weight of their "100% Natural Talalay Latex Foam" at 5.6 lbs density for 12" x 12" x 12". I have read elsewhere in the forums that this density suggests the Dunlop manufacturing process instead of talalay (resulting in 3-4 lbs density and a softer feel.) I'm not convinced but perhaps sandman or someone with knowledge about latex production could comment.
Ironically, we have purchased and installed a queen Aerus memory foam mattress from Sam's Club for the RV but haven't slept on it yet. The 4 lbs memory foam feels plush and still firm enough. The latex mattress is a work in progress that will end up in (my) spare bedroom. The wife gets up two hours before I do during the work week so my life would otherwise be a sleep deprivation experiment.

 

[sleepswithcats]

If you aren't picky (some people on this forum have pain issues, others like me are thankful to not have any issues), I would try the surgery. You'll get good advice here and will probably end up with a good mattress. I'm amazed how much low quality foam is in more expensive mattresses. I wonder what the quality of mattresses at Big Lots! is. I've never looked at the tags to see if they are returns.

 

[stacytr]

SleepLikeADog wrote:
...
To complete your surgery a 2" layer of FBM soft [ILD 20] under a 2" layer of FBM [ILD 32] over your mattress/box springs would be much more plush and supportive than my 8" on a board set-up or your original poly. ($468)
I notice FBM lists the weight of their "100% Natural Talalay Latex Foam" at 5.6 lbs density for 12" x 12" x 12". I have read elsewhere in the forums that this density suggests the Dunlop manufacturing process instead of talalay (resulting in 3-4 lbs density and a softer feel.) I'm not convinced but perhaps sandman or someone with knowledge about latex production could comment.
....
I had not read anywhere that FBM was possibly dunlop and not talalay! I swear I just want to hit my head against a wall right now!! I have been reading on this forum for days and I absolutely know that elements of this are subjective -- I just want to know what I am getting!
Does anyone have any more infor on Foam by mail and know if they are selling dunlop or talalay? I want to make sure I don't get anything too firm!

 

[stacytr]

sandman wrote:
...
Adding latex should definitely help. Without it, you are probably bottoming out on the coils, which are probably pretty firm. Over my Sealy coils (not sure how they would compare in firmness to yours) I have 2" of 32 talalay latex + 1" 24 talalay latex + 1" 5.9lb. memory foam + 1" 19 ILD latex.
I think you probably need at least 2" of base latex in the 28-32 range. I prefer the Latex International (which costs more), but FBM might work. Above that you probably need 2-3" of more comfort layers. Your memory foam might work, but you also might need a transition piece of latex around 24 ILD.
Unfortunately, it takes some trial and error, depending on how picky you are. The upside is that you will then have some fairly high quality foam that can last pretty long. Not sure the quality of your memory foam though, so that might be an issue. I have found that just using 1" of memory foam works best for me, but 2" is probably okay if the base below is pretty firm.


Sandman thanks for chiming in -- I really think we are going to copy you -- but use FBM instead -- it's just a LOT cheaper! They unfortunately don't have an ILD of 24 as an option -- so hopefully the transition won't be too much. Would you agree with sleepslikeadog that I could just use 2" of 19 -- or do you think 1" would be enough?
I'd like to see this surgery through -- but Ikea is looking pretty good right about now!!

 

[DoreenA]

Wow..that foam looks just like the cheap egg crate I bought recently at Walmart. I think a full sized sheet was about $19. Nice to see what's in these expensive beds.

 

[weewillywinky]

Stacytr, how do the springs look now that you've removed the foam? The first picture above looks like they're slanting, or maybe it's just the camera angle. If the springs are shot, there's no point in trying to keep them as a base for expensive layering, it seems to me. I'd recommend you take a good look at them and see if they're still in good shape before you decide what to do next.
Good luck! Keep up the good work and keep us posted!

 

[sandman]

stacytr wrote:

Sandman thanks for chiming in -- I really think we are going to copy you -- but use FBM instead -- it's just a LOT cheaper! They unfortunately don't have an ILD of 24 as an option -- so hopefully the transition won't be too much. Would you agree with sleepslikeadog that I could just use 2" of 19 -- or do you think 1" would be enough?
I'd like to see this surgery through -- but Ikea is looking pretty good right about now!!

The firmness of the FBM might be differerent than the Latex International. It seems like they use a different process (probably less expensive) than Latex International to make their talalay. I don't know if I would say it is dunlop, but maybe it effectively is like something in between. I have never bought any myself, so just speculating. In the past, some have said that the 20 seems firmer than LI 20.
In terms of copying, since you are starting with different coils (although they look similiar to mine) and a different maker of latex, you will not get the same result. I am not sure what you are looking for in terms of firmness. I would rate mine around medium. I have definitely felt firmer, and most pillowtops would be softer.
The beauty of customizing is that you can make adjustments by adding or removing 1-2". So, I would start with something on the firmer side (I use 2" 32 Latex International) as a base level, put on your memory foam, and see how it feels at that point.
I see that FBM has a 29 ILD 6" mattress, but they don't show that in the toppers. Not sure if you can get just 2" of 29 from them. You can call and ask. That might be a good choice if indeed their talaly is firmer than Latex international. Otherwise, you may want to try 2" of their 32. My guess is that plus your memory foam would still feel pretty firm, in which case you might want to add 1" of their 20 or LI 24.
I know Rockymountain mattress use to have good prices on 2" of talalay and dunlop, but I think they discountinued the talalay (that is where I bought mine).

 

[stacytr]

weewillywinky wrote:


Stacytr, how do the springs look now that you've removed the foam? The first picture above looks like they're slanting, or maybe it's just the camera angle. If the springs are shot, there's no point in trying to keep them as a base for expensive layering, it seems to me. I'd recommend you take a good look at them and see if they're still in good shape before you decide what to do next.

Good luck! Keep up the good work and keep us posted!

Springs seem fine -- just a slightly wonky angle in the 1st pic . We pulled everything back pressed on them in several places and even laid on them, and the springs don't seem to have too much give to them -- but honestly we aren't sure how much give they should or shouldn't have. They definitely don't bottom out or anything. Hubby and I have decided to go forward with the latex. I'm a little nervous -- but just desperate for a new feel to the mattress!
ETA -- they do press down some -- there is some give -- so they aren't the firmest set on the block -- and when we laid on them there was some compression/movement -- but no bottoming out. The give seems to be pretty uniform to us.

 

[stacytr]

We are going to purchase latex from FBM! Just wondering if anyone else had any thoughts on 2" vs 3" for our base layer -- foam by mail 32 ILD. Do you think we need one of those stretchy terry covers if it's going to go into our stearns and foster cover/exterior (minus that quilted top of course!)
Thanks!

 

[stacytr]

Ok how desperate am I?! I am hoping for a few someones to give additional opinions on our purchase -- going to order today!
Since Sandman and Sleeplikeadog have posted slightly different opinions on thickness, I find myself waffling and I can't seem to make a decision on depth. It's a little cheaper to buy thicker right up front than it is to buy 2" and then add a 3rd inch of the same ILD later -- but the price difference is by no means significant. I just am really hoping to be one of the rare few that gets it right the first time out of the gate!! As I get thicker, I wonder if the springs start being superfluous.
Sandman, I added info to my report on the springs above (post #9) -- I would say that the bed when we bought it was a fairly firm (med-firm?) -- and my guess is that the springs alone feel probably medium -- so maybe it is close to your sealy. As I get a bit older I am liking a bit more softness than I used to like, but still with really good firm support underneath. We went to Custom Comfort mattress store and tried several beds with latex -- and one of the ones we really liked was a 32 ILD talalay (from LI) with a 1" 19 ILD on top and bottom (flippable). This was also on a foundation rather than a boxspring -- which is what we have at home. We also liked a really firm innerspring bed that had a 2" 19 ILD topper. Interestingly enough they also had a pillowtop innerspring with 2" of 19 ILD built into it, and I liked it less than the one with the seperate topper. She swore to me it was the same coils inside so I don't know what made the difference in feel...
So for our purchase -- we are getting either 2" or 3" of FBM 32 ILD (and hoping that it is somwhere close to what it says it is)
and getting 1" - 2" of 19 ILD
we also already have a 2" overstock mem foam (supposed to be about a 5 pound density but we never confirmed that -- it's just heavy) that may be starting to wear out .
We are mostly side sleepers -- I like the bed a bit firmer than my husband -- but I also have a thin plywood type piece I could put between the mattress and boxsprings if needed.
If you were us which combo of foam would you buy? (Assuming you would buy from foam by mail!) Should we bother with the terry cover?
Thank you!!

 

[sandman]

stacytr wrote:
Ok how desperate am I?! I am hoping for a few someones to give additional opinions on our purchase -- going to order today!

Since Sandman and Sleeplikeadog have posted slightly different opinions on thickness, I find myself waffling and I can't seem to make a decision on depth. It's a little cheaper to buy thicker right up front than it is to buy 2" and then add a 3rd inch of the same ILD later -- but the price difference is by no means significant. I just am really hoping to be one of the rare few that gets it right the first time out of the gate!! As I get thicker, I wonder if the springs start being superfluous.
Sandman, I added info to my report on the springs above (post #9) -- I would say that the bed when we bought it was a fairly firm (med-firm?) -- and my guess is that the springs alone feel probably medium -- so maybe it is close to your sealy. As I get a bit older I am liking a bit more softness than I used to like, but still with really good firm support underneath. We went to Custom Comfort mattress store and tried several beds with latex -- and one of the ones we really liked was a 32 ILD talalay (from LI) with a 1" 19 ILD on top and bottom (flippable). This was also on a foundation rather than a boxspring -- which is what we have at home. We also liked a really firm innerspring bed that had a 2" 19 ILD topper. Interestingly enough they also had a pillowtop innerspring with 2" of 19 ILD built into it, and I liked it less than the one with the seperate topper. She swore to me it was the same coils inside so I don't know what made the difference in feel...
So for our purchase -- we are getting either 2" or 3" of FBM 32 ILD (and hoping that it is somwhere close to what it says it is)
and getting 1" - 2" of 19 ILD
we also already have a 2" overstock mem foam (supposed to be about a 5 pound density but we never confirmed that -- it's just heavy) that may be starting to wear out .
We are mostly side sleepers -- I like the bed a bit firmer than my husband -- but I also have a thin plywood type piece I could put between the mattress and boxsprings if needed.
If you were us which combo of foam would you buy? (Assuming you would buy from foam by mail!) Should we bother with the terry cover?
Thank you!!
I still prefer 2" of 32 and probably at least 1" of medium foam (24-28) as a transition. However, I like it on the medium to medium/soft fell. My box spring is very firm, and that can be a factor as well.
Any chance you know the coil count in your mattress? I would say that mine is pretty firm, with a high coil count and a firm box spring. Yours looks like a similiar construction, so I think it would be similiar unless you have a lower coil count or thinner gauge.
It is nice to have just one piece, but my philosophy is too have more flexiblity which is easier with thinner pieces. Easier to move them around as well. You can always add an inch, but you can't make a piece thinner.
In reality, you probably will make a mistake or 2 and it will cost you some money. I know I did, but in the end it was worth it.

 

[Catherine]

sandman wrote:
.......my philosophy is to have more flexiblity which is easier with thinner pieces. Easier to move them around as well. You can always add an inch, but you can't make a piece thinner.
^^^ This.
Go for flexibility. I've been sorry when I didn't do that.

 

[stacytr]

sandman wrote:


I still prefer 2" of 32 and probably at least 1" of medium foam (24-28) as a transition. However, I like it on the medium to medium/soft fell. My box spring is very firm, and that can be a factor as well.
Any chance you know the coil count in your mattress? I would say that mine is pretty firm, with a high coil count and a firm box spring. Yours looks like a similiar construction, so I think it would be similiar unless you have a lower coil count or thinner gauge.
It is nice to have just one piece, but my philosophy is too have more flexiblity which is easier with thinner pieces. Easier to move them around as well. You can always add an inch, but you can't make a piece thinner.
In reality, you probably will make a mistake or 2 and it will cost you some money. I know I did, but in the end it was worth it.

Thanks Sandman and Catherine for chiming in -- worshipping you both a little right now for responding!
Sandman, I'm not positive on the coil count on my mattress -- I tried to just count along the inside edges and multiply -- I'm assuming I was counting correctly (just trying to do it by feel since the batting covers the coils) -- I got 840 -- that's on a king sized bed. I did find this link that gives some info on coil counts for the major brands http://www.mattressbuy.com/mattress_buy_htm/information/mattress_core.htm According to it my coil count is 504 but the gauge is 12.75. I wonder if Budgy would say this info is accurate? So less coils but heavier weight than your Sealy. What does that mean for the feel in comparison to yours? I really don't know!
I also found this "Many people ask if more coils are better. The answer is...it depends. More coils are better when the manufacturer spaces the same size and type of coils closer together providing more coils in the same size mattress. Trying to compare the quality of mattresses between brands based on coil count is not applicable. For example, of all the major brands we sell, Stearns and Foster mattresses have the fewest number of coils, but they also use the thickest wire. Even with less coils, the Stearns and Foster coil unit has more working steel in it than any other mattress we sell. Realistically, there are just too many variables in coil design, function, and durability for consumers to understand what they are getting without spending days on coil research... " from this site: http://www.us-mattress.com/howtoshop.html I find it kind of interesting (I may be a bit mattress obsessed)