Frustrated w/Flobeds configuration - advice?

[johann]

We bought a flobeds v-zone recently. Me firm over x-firm, her medium over firm, . I am 5' 10" 165lbs, in my 40s, and very fit (a P90X'er). I'm a back and sides sleeper. I haven't had a good night's sleep since we got the bed a month ago. When I lay in it, it never quite feels comfortable, but the key thing is that after 5 or 6 hours I wake up and my lower back feels sore (even though it's in very good shape), back end uncomfortable, legs start to ache a little... it almost feels more like a nerve thing that makes me want to squirm and change positions. Our old innerspring was not horribly comfortable either, especially laying on my sides w/pressure points in the hips, but once I got to sleep I slept significantly longer and more soundly than in this flobed.
Flobeds (who have been very nice) told me to try sleeping on my wife's side to see if I need something softer. I've tried that for 4 nights now and don't really feel any different when getting up... same sore spots.
Anyone (particularly those who are trim & fit) gone through something similar? What did you do? I basically just want a bed where I can sleep 7-8 hours without waking up feeling pain.

 

[st3v3k4hn]

Does it feel too soft or too firm, or can you tell? If I have this right, Flobeds adds a 2" soft convoluted foam on top of the ~3" zoned layer which is itself on the other 2 layers. Although I think this can be a great system, its a lot of moving parts, and can make things super complicated. If I were you I would start by removing the vzone layer, to see how it feels with just "regular" foam. You have to try to see if the "support" is right, then work on getting the "comfort" right. (Support is how well the mattress keeps your body aligned, comfort is how "cushy" the top feels.) You may have to play around a while; most of us do.
Have you ever slept on a latex mattress before? Did you like it then? It does take some adjusting, and some people never get used to it. For those people I would recommend going back to a very firm innerspring mattress with as little foam in it as possible, and adding 2-4" of latex to get the desired softness.
Good luck.
Steve

 

[Conservative]

M-S-F-M-XF-F

I am assuming the M is the head and F is the foot. I have my doubts on that XF at your knees and maybe even the F at your lumbar. Do your legs feel like they are being held up high relative to your spine? If so, I would think that would cause some lower back issues. If you are fit, I doubt that your butt/hips are significantly wider than your thighs.
At your weight, I doubt that the Firm or X-Firm on the bottom layer 8" down would make any difference to you. I think your issue is in your zoned layer.

 

[sandman]

Anyway to describe better why it is uncomfortable? Does it feel too soft or too firm? Also, it can be hard to optimize for side and back sleeping. Back sleeping is generally better with firmer under the hips.
My guess is that it is too soft and not too firm, especially since going softer did not help. You may want to try going back to your side and changing the medium under your hips with the firm under your legs. What is under your legs does not matter that much in my opinion. See how that works. If you want it even firmer, you can move the firm to the bottom and put the Xf in the middle. Or even further you can put the vzone in the middle (kind of defeats purpose) and firm on top. Experiment a bit and then you can try to exchange layers once you figure out a direction to go.
I actually tried the vzone and was never able to get totally satisfied with all latex for some reason. Mainly it always felt too soft or too hard in my hip area (depending on the configuration - I side sleep only). I had some heat issues as well, but I don't think anymore that was strictly a fault with latex/flobeds. I really did like it softer in the shoulders though. I think I might have been happier with it by using what I know use on the top layers: 1" of memory foam and 1" of 19 ILD latex instead of the convoluted layer.

 

[Conservative]

IMO, at 5'10 165lbs, side-sleeper, I don't think anything with the word Firm in it should be within 4" of the sleep surface. We aren't that far apart. I am 5'11" 150lbs, fit, side-sleeper, and I tried 2" of 20-24(Soft-Talalay) over 3" 28(Med-Talalay) over 5.5" 25(Med-Soft Dunlop) and it hurt pretty bad after about 6 hours no matter which way I slept. When I was on my back my lower-back was unsupported - I could shove my hand under it. When on my side my arm would fall asleep within minutes from the pressure.

 

[johann]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses. I gave some incorrect info re: the vzone. I opened the bed up and looked at it.
Her side: medium over firm, vzone starting at the head is S-S-M-S-F-M (this is where I'm sleeping now)
My side: firm over x-firm, vzone starting at head is S-S-F-S-M-M (where I slept the first few weeks. F is lumbar.)
There is a layer of convoluted foam above the v-zone on both sides.
The vzones originally came configured the same, after maybe 2(?) weeks of discomfort flobeds had me try switching the F up to the lumbar in the vzone on my side. I tried that for a week or two.
I'm generally a back sleeper who occasionally shifts to side. Athletic taper, small-boned, small hips, small rear (not a lot of "padding"), small legs, any extra weight is in the belly. I prefer soft surfaces, but I don't know if i sleep better on it (i'm new to really thinking about this). Once I fell asleep, I slept well on an innerspring for many years, although it does have the problem of creating a lot of pressure points.
I sit in a chair a lot at work, and as I've gotten older I've had probably some typical issues people have who sit a lot.. sore rear, thigh discomfort, etc. I don't have any direct back pain at work, though. I want my bed to avoid exacerbating these annoyances rather than adding to them. That was one of the reasons I moved away from innerspring...
When I lay down, I do a lot of shifting of my weight and legs while on my back to get the pressure off the area from my lower back through the thighs. It's hard to explain what it feels like. Once I fall asleep I probably stop moving aroudn this so much, and that leads to eventual discomfort. I definitely toss and turn less with the latex (thought i don't sleep as well). I have mild hip bursitis so that can make sleeping on my side on an innerspring kind of annoying (I'm on my back probably 80% of the time). All of this is what led me to latex. While I'm awake innerspring is no more pleasant than the latex, but I do seem to sleep better on it once asleep.
Conservative: Yes, actually, it does "feel" like my legs are sitting high on both sides, but particularly on my side (firm over x-firm) of the bed. I just chalked this up to a difference between latex and innerspring. With the F in my lumbar it feels a little like something is poking my lumbar. On both sides it sort of feels like i'm heading downhill to my abdomen, then heading back uphill. I cannot feel a gap between the bed and my back at any point, though. Your problems sound similar to mine. What arrangement did you end up going with that worked for you?
Sandman: Do you feel the bed is less hot w/the vzone gone? It has felt a little hot to me at times, I wasn't sure what that was about.
Steve: "Support" is definitely the problem I'm trying to solve now. Not really sure what to do.

 

[sandman]

So, the piece under your hips is soft? I would think that would be on the soft side, especially for back sleeping and with the 2" soft convoluted layer. You also seem to describe sinking in a lot in the mid section, which would also indicate that piece is too soft. I would try at a minimum switching the medium under you legs for the soft under your hips. It is easy to do. See if that is better or worse. As I suggested before, you can also consider putting the F on bottom and Xf in middle to try firmer.
Most people only find what works through trial and error.
I don't think the vzone per ser would affect heat, but two other issues will. The softer the mattress and the more you sink in, the warmer it will tend to be (since you body is more surrounded by material). Second, a foam mattress (latex and especially memory foam) with tend to retain heat more than the old style firm innersprings (the type that did not have much padding on top). In part you don't sink in as much, and in part those materials on top might breathe more than foam. The springs themselves do not retain heat. The newer innerspring pillowtop mattresses can be pretty warm as well.
However, many people are fine with latex and do not have heat issues. I solved it in part by going a bit firmer and in part by using lighter sheets (lower thread count cotton) and lighter blankets. I also have wool on top, but the flobeds does that as well. It is possible a wool mattress pad might help as well, or one that is 100% cotton.

 

[Conservative]

From your new information, I think it is good that the first two zones are Soft (at least for when you are on your side). However, if you are relatively rectangular once you get below the V of your lats, I think all the rest of the zones should be the same. So I would try S-S-M-M-M-M if possible. The foot being M is probably the least important for your trial. Zoning is for curves, and if you only have 'curves'(shape) above your mid-section, then above your mid-section is the only place you need zoning. Heck, being that you are mainly on your back, you might try replacing your whole V-Zone layer with your wife's solid Medium layer if they are the same thickness.
It just seems to me that you probably don't have enough butt to warrant extra lumbar support (the convoluted topper would fill in the little curve you do have). And if your legs are being held up relatively high due to the zoning variance between the hips and thighs, that has got to be bad for the lower back, especially when you are on your side.

 

[st3v3k4hn]

johann wrote:
Steve: "Support" is definitely the problem I'm trying to solve now. Not really sure what to do.
Like I said I would just remove the whole zone layer and see how that feels...

 

[Conservative]

I forgot to answer your last question.
First, I am ignorant to the effects of the bottom layer since I have not had the opportunity to change that on my bed. However both you and I have very tall mattresses for our weight, so I believe its effect is at least minimized if not zero. My base is 5.5" and is a Dunlop Medium which some would say is similar to a Talalay Firm. It is the only Dunlop layer I have and it feels different. Basically when you push down on the core, the first 1/2"-1" feels very soft, but then it firms up extremely quick.
So, ignoring that core, my top layer is 1.5" of 14ILD (Ultra Plush). For our conversation, I would bet that is somewhat similar to your convoluted topper situation. Next is a 1" 22ILD (Soft) layer. Next is a 3" layer of 28ILD (Medium). This is what I have slept on for a couple of weeks. I just slept over 9 hours last night. I have no issues other than wanting to make the shoulder area softer, which I am working on creating something like your S-S top zones. Remember, I am mostly a side sleeper, although I always start on my back. When I lay on my back, I feel that it is just barely on the soft side for me, meaning my lumbar is being pushed up a little too much because my butt is sinking down a little too much. While playing around one time, I tried the 14ILD directly on the 28ILD, and, on my back, it felt absolutely perfect. So, that is why I think that your zones that are under your lumbar, hips, and thighs, should all be the same (Medium most likely, but possibly firm since you are slightly heavier). Your topper would be like my 1.5" 14ILD and your Medium Zones would be like my 3" 28ILD.
Gary

 

[johann]

In rereading these messages last night, I went back to my side of the bed and switched my lumbar out so that the configuration is now S-S-M-M-F-S. The first M is lumbar, the second M is the large piece extends through the thighs. (Other than switching the F with the S at the foot, I think that's the closest this vzone can get to mimicking a straight setup.) My back hurt worse than ever from that this morning, but I probably need to give it a few nights. I'm not sure how much the F and S are impacting things, but it sounds like most of you are saying that I should try a solid layer, so I'll contact Flobeds about that. II don't want to mess w/my wife's side since it's a comfortable setup for her.
Question: Should I try all-medium or all-soft "vzone" layer? The reason I ask is that I would like something softer for when I turn on my side in particular... i want to relieve pressure points mainly it seems in my glutes when on my back and on my hips when I turn to my side... sort of counteracting (or at least not exacerbating) the effects of sitting in a chair so much during the day.
Gary, do you have a flobeds? I'm not sure how I'd even suggest your setup to them... I think one thing your posts have made clear that it may be my lack of 'curves' that could be causing some of the problems.

 

[Conservative]

I don't have Flobeds. Mine is a DIY mattress. I still don't like that F under the thighs, but I am surprised it would be that big of a deal. Your wife has a S-F for the hip-thigh zones, right? It is not bothering her having such a drastic change there, but I would guess she has more "curves" there than you. I guess one possibility is that the topper stuff is too thick and/or too soft. Can you sleep on it without the top fluff stuff? Other than that, I am at a loss. Hopefully time helps.

 

[sandman]

I think the current setup is worth a try. It is a bit puzzling to figure out if you need to go softer or firmer. It doesnt' seem like either is working for you. As gary suggested, you might also want to try without the convoluted piece. That would make it even firmer, but might bother your wife.
In the end, I think that convoluted layer may have not worked for me. For some reason I could not get totally satisfied with the flobed setup. Probably my favorite congiguration was taking off the convouluted piece and using 1" of memory foam on top. I considered sticking with that in the end, but I also had not resolved the heat issues at that point.
I was using 2 layers of XF, firm under the hips and soft under the shoulders + 1" of memory foam. 1 more inch of my 19 ILD might have completed it to something satisfactory for me. I am 6"4" 210-215 sidesleeper, so a bit heavier than you.
It is possible that you need something that provides a bit more pressure relief. It is hard to say how well the convoluted piece works for that. I believe it is 28ILD, but the convoluted nature makes is much softer. Still, form me, I seem to prefer to have 1" of high density memory foam in the mix + 1" of soft latex in hte mix. I have not been as bothered with pressure on the hip bone with that combination.

 

[johann]

Gary: Where did you get that setup? I wouldn't even know where to begin ordering something like that.
Sandman, what is your setup and do you share anything in common w/my description?
Of course, I'm going to give Flobeds every opportunity to help me get a setup that works first. You guys have given me some good ideas that I can discuss with them and figure out where to go next.

 

[sandman]

I would say that my situation is a bit different. I am taller and heavier (6'4", 213) and almost exclusively a side sleeper. I tend to like a mattress that a plush but dense feel on top (not fluff like a pillowtop) with a pretty firm (but also springy) support level. I like to sink is a bit to reduce pressure points, but I don't like the feeling of sinking into a crater.
I could not get totally comfortable with all latex or a memory foam bed. I wanted to be able to blend memory foam and latex, and I also thought have a spring base might be cooler and more consistent support.
What I ended up doing was cutting open a fairly new Sealy (Reserve with 782 14 gauge coils) and replacing the foam. So, over the coils I have 2" of 32 100% natural talalay with a section cut out under the shoulders and replaced with about 21ILD latex in that section. Above that I have 1" of 24 ILD 100% natural latex, 1" of 5.9Lb. memory foam from foamorder, and 1" of 19 ILD blended talaly. Right now I have a 100% cotton fairly thin mattress pad to cover it and a washable wool filled mattress pad by Natura over that.
I would say it feels soft, but also has a densness to it that means you don't keep sinking in too far. You would be hard to find an innerspring with the quality foam that I am using, unless you were willing to pay a far more. So, I would not say that I am sleeping on a cloud, but I pretty much enjoy it and the mattress itself does not seem to cause any significant problems for me. I might still occassionaly get hot, but usually i can resolve by using less blankets.
You can see some photos here, but they are out of date. Maybe soon I will update them.

 

[Lynn2006]

I think the V-Zone may be right for some people but it sounds like it is very difficult to get it right and more people seem to be happy without the V-Zone. Is anyone happy with the V-Zone on this list? I can see how it can be helpful for some people but I am very happy with my Flobed with three very firm layers of Latex and a 1" soft latex topper for the cushion.

 

[bigbuys]

No V-Zone and certainly not that fit but I bought the model just below it. I sleep on my back 40% and on my side 60%. I had your same problems when my mix of layer were way too soft! We had to change layers four (4!) times to get it right for us. Much, much firmer.
The price seemed high but the customer service after the sale confirmed my decision. Dewey has been marvelous to work with as I made my numerous decisions. The bottom line is that my wife and I both like a much firmer bed than their "calculator" indicated, as well as the normal firmness sold at Plushbeds and other places. I am 300 lbs. and my bed was perfect at XXXFirm 3" base, XFirm 3" mid and Firm 3" top layer plus their normal very, very soft convoluted 2" topper. My wife is 130 lbs. and she loves her side at XFirm, MedFirm, Firm plus the topper. I believe that FLOBEDS has the right idea with 3 layer plus the super soft Talalay Latex topper. Dewey tells me that this convoluted (egg crate) topper starts out as 24 ILD and the convolution makes it feel like a 12 ILD.
Bottom line: I have been sleeping on my new FLOBEDS bed for nearly a year now and can not even imagine sleeping on a typical mattress anymore. 'nuff said!

 

[eagle2]

It has been a long time since I spoke to them, but it use to be that the best thing to do for someone who had just purchased a flobeds, was to call flobeds and talk to the owners, Dave or his son Dewey Turner about there problem. They know how to treat there customers right.

 

[johann]

Well it has been another month of experimenting and I still can't find a winning Flobeds solution. Below are the top-to-bottom combinations I have tried, all of them for at least 4 days (for vzone, Flobeds said that the only layers that matter are the 3 ones covering shoulders, lumbar, and rear/thigh, so only those are listed).

1. Convoluted topper, Vzone SMS, Firm, XFirm (original setup)
2. Convoluted topper, Vzone MFM, Firm, XFirm
3. Convoluted topper, Vzone SSS, Firm, XFirm (basically the equivalent of having a full soft layer)
4. Convoluted topper, Medium, Firm, XFirm (swapped the vzone with my wife for one of her layers)
5. Convoluted topper, Firm, Medium, XFirm

If I sleep beyond 7h a night, all of them lead to a sore lower back. It's hard to describe how it feels, but almost tense. Of the various options, I liked the "feel" of option 3 the best, especially on my side, whereas option 4 probably caused the least back pain. Option 5 did not improve anything on option 4 and it's made sleeping on my side a lot more uncomfortable. Any other options to try first? I thought one person mentioned to try it without the convoluted topper, but I'm not sure if it would make much difference (?). I guess right now I'm just wondering if I should send this bed back and maybe just get an innerspring with some type of soft topper, as I can have a sore back with a $1,000 bed instead of a $3,000 bed.