Low back pain; too firm or too soft?

[st3v3k4hn]

So I've recently made some changes to my sleepez 10000 bed (see below) and developed lower back pain. My back feels very stiff and sore in the morning, and its very hard to stretch forward (ie to touch my toes); stretching backward feels nice. I sleep mostly on my side and back, I would think the pain is from the back sleeping. Is there any way to tell just from the description if the problem is too firm or too soft support?
If not, here is more about the changes I made. I was sleeping on a pretty soft bed, waking up generally stiff and sore, but not usually with real "aches" like this. I had something like this (top to bottom);

• 1 or more thin toppers (wool pad, convoluted foam, memory foam, fiber bed, microfiber allergy cover) - constantly mixing these to try and achieve better results
• 3" soft talalay
• 3" medium talalay
• 3" medium dunlop

After extensive work with Phoenix (see this monster thread if interested - http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/overstuffing-mattress-case-foam-layers/16508-0-1.html) - we essentially decided that all those toppers were doing more harm than good, and that I needed both a softer top comfort layer and a firmer bottom support layer. So I bought a 3" firm dunlop and a 1" soft talalay from sleepez. I now sleep on:

• standard poly-filled mattress pad + microfiber allergy cover
• 1" soft talalay
• 3" soft talalay
• 3" medium dunlop
• 3" firm dunlop

So, looking at the changes, I would guess either I made the top too soft (unlikely since I used a variety of toppers before) or the bottom "support" too firm. But that seems to contradict the testing I did with Phoenix. I suppose its possible that I am simply sleeping on my back more or something; I do think I sleep on my back more that the bed feels a bit firmer. I would sure appreciate any help...
Steve

 

[chas0512]

hey steve i believe you are in the same situation as my wife and I, we got a good base of latex but trying to find that perfect fit for the top is difficult. if u read our thread chas0512 just 2 down from yours you would see that we are playing with a 1 inch 21 celsion latex and a 19 over a very firm 10 inch base. and we also have a 2 inch 14 ild that we cant seem to make work because it creates lower back pain. my best guess (from our own experience) is that you want that pillowtop feel because of your previous threads and still want the support. want a soft bed with support that doesnt end up like a banana. my only solution is what i believe what we will end up doing is a 24 or 20 for the help of the support for your back and cutting out a section for your shoulders or one inch memory foam to help get that plush pillowtop feeling.
i havent answered your Q huh, .. ok just my opinion but i think your 2 soft on your hips to support your back, some ppl cut out places for there shoulders to get the right feel maybe ( and its a big MAYBE) but consider adding more support under ur hips and back to see if it helps.
dont know if this helped but good luck ( god i sound like an idiot) sandman help!!!
thanks
aaron

 

[shovel99]

Steve,
Combination side sleeper back sleeper ... lower lumbar pain. 170 lb male. Spent 4-5 years in constant pain wrestling through 23 mattresses and 100 toppers. Couldn't even tell if there was an improvement in topper shuffling there was so much residual pain. I took the surgery leap maybe 4 months ago to isolate the comfort layer from the support layer (springs)... with sandman's help and example. Have been sleeping pretty well with 4 one inch layers over just the firm continuous springs from a Firm Serta Perfect sleeper.
You, like me and others with back pain... need firm to very firm as close underneath just enough or as little comfort layer as possible... soft at the top ... medium... to firm as you go down.
I chose the Serta for the continuous coil.. recommended for us with back pain.
You know we side/back flipper problem: need thin layer of shaping comfort layer over firm when lying on back... and a much thicker conforming comfort layer when lying on side. And quite firm... right under the comfort layer.
I have concluded that only memory foam... on the top layer can get even close to doing that.
I literally have only slept when my top 1 inch layer was-is the 1 inch 4 lb density eco green memory foam from overstock... think they call it comfort dreams, too. It is not as hot as some ohter mem foams. You build down from there... as stiff as you can stand... if too stiff.. soften it up. I am keeping my comfort layer over the "base"... for me springs... for you probably 30+ ILD Latex.... to 4 inches. Otherwise, my butt sinks in when lying on my back... and I wake up in stabbing pain. I interpret this as "my lower back senses my butt 'falling in a hole' and works all night at holding up my butt... so those muscles are in tired agony when I awake."
Just checked.. I guess I recommended the enviro green mem foam so much it sold out. Here's a reasonable substitute.. I tried it a while back and was almost as good, but now more expensive:

http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Comfort-Dreams-Mem-Cool-1-inch-Memory-Foam-Mattress-Topper/3169352/product.html

I bought the Cal King and cut to Queen to be sure it fully covered the bed. The comments said the cheaped the dimensions. This is easy to do with office scissors... use a tape measure and dot your cut line every 6 inches or so to stay in line. No one will ever see it, so doesn't need to be perfect.
mem foam sleeps hot, but with a pad over it.. and no more than 2 inches, and the second.. if you decide to... firmer 5 lb sensus... it won't be wrapping you so tightly that it will be hugely noticeable.
For a month, I have followed up the 4 lb mem foam top to bottom with 1 inch of super soft poly foam from foamdistrubuting.com. This is slightly softer than 20 ILD latex from FBM. Then 1 inch 20 ILD Fbm.com Then another 1 inch supersoft foam on top of the springs.
Start with the one inch of 4 lb mem foam immediately. Get a queen. You can fold it to see what 2 inches on top of your firmer foam feels like. I guarantee that will take you in the right direction. You may need 1-2 inches more of the soft poly foam or 20 ILD on top of firm foam.
I tried blocks of latex as a base. I very much did not like it. I found even 2x2" x 20 ILD as a latex base being "much" firmer than my Serta Perfect Sleeper Firm springs. At least they flex some.. as they are supposed to.
I guarantee 1-2 inches of 4-5 lb mem foam... then 1-2 inches of 20+ ILD then quite firm will be heading in the right direction.
Good luck. I have been there... we have all been there. Hopefully you are right around the corner from success!
Paul

 

[sandman]

Based on your descriptions, it seems like your problems got worse after you made it firmer? Is your perception that your hips are sinking in too much or not enough? There can be issues if you are switching from side to back, because it may not be possible to optimize for both.
I don't usually get that much back pain, but sometimes when I have gone too soft (and I feel I am sinking in too much) I get pain. But, I have also had back pain sleeping on really firm innersprings. So, it really can be either.
Do you have any of the old pieces remaining? If so, maybe try the medium talalay instead of the medium dunlop and see what happens.
I know when Jimsocal tried the medium dunlop from Sleepez, he thought it was really firm. He could not use it.

 

[st3v3k4hn]

sandman wrote:
Based on your descriptions, it seems like your problems got worse after you made it firmer? Is your perception that your hips are sinking in too much or not enough? There can be issues if you are switching from side to back, because it may not be possible to optimize for both.
I don't usually get that much back pain, but sometimes when I have gone too soft (and I feel I am sinking in too much) I get pain. But, I have also had back pain sleeping on really firm innersprings. So, it really can be either.
Do you have any of the old pieces remaining? If so, maybe try the medium talalay instead of the medium dunlop and see what happens.
I know when Jimsocal tried the medium dunlop from Sleepez, he thought it was really firm. He could not use it.
Yes it seems to me that I never really had low back pain until I added the firm dunlop to the bottom of my stack in January. Before that the firmest I ever had was Soft Tal over 2 medium dunlops. So that would be an argument that its too firm now. Which would say replace the firm dunlop with a medium dunlop to make it like it was before. Also, the only backaches I've had in the past were caused by too firm mattresses (usually in hotels).
But when I added the firm I also added a 1" soft to offset the extra firmness and allow my shoulders to sink in more on my side.So maybe now the overall effect is still too soft? It feels reasonably comfortable when I sleep on my back, but if I had to pick I would say I am probably sinking in too much. So maybe the 4" soft on top is too much. I can take that layer off but that will obviously make it firmer and if its firmness causing the problem that will be way worse.
This is all made much harder because my back really hurts too much to move the layers now anyway...
Steve

 

[sandman]

I doubt that the 1" is enough to make it too soft, since in your previous configurations you also had added something soft on top and also had softer middle and bottom layers. Those had less pain then the current configuration. Is there anyway you can stick to just side or back sleeping, or does that not work for you?
Is your impression that it feels too soft in the hips (sinking in a lot) or not when side sleeping?
Certainly you need to try something else. You can go firmer by taking off the top 1" and/or moving the medium dunlop to the bottom and the firm to the middle.
It is possibly that it is too soft in the hips and too firm in shoulders for you to get comfortable. If so, zoning may be the only solution. But I am not sure you are at that point yet. I would pick a direction your gut instinct tells you to go, and make it softer or firmer and see the results. Certainly you can go a bit firmer with the pieces you have to see if that helps. Not sure if you still have the medium talalay to try as well.
I did not read the long thread, so not totally sure what all combinations you have tried, but I am getting the sense that nothing has really worked?

 

[st3v3k4hn]

sandman wrote:
I doubt that the 1" is enough to make it too soft, since in your previous configurations you also had added something soft on top and also had softer middle and bottom layers. Those had less pain then the current configuration. Is there anyway you can stick to just side or back sleeping, or does that not work for you?
Is your impression that it feels too soft in the hips (sinking in a lot) or not when side sleeping?
Certainly you need to try something else. You can go firmer by taking off the top 1" and/or moving the medium dunlop to the bottom and the firm to the middle.
It is possibly that it is too soft in the hips and too firm in shoulders for you to get comfortable. If so, zoning may be the only solution. But I am not sure you are at that point yet. I would pick a direction your gut instinct tells you to go, and make it softer or firmer and see the results. Certainly you can go a bit firmer with the pieces you have to see if that helps. Not sure if you still have the medium talalay to try as well.
I did not read the long thread, so not totally sure what all combinations you have tried, but I am getting the sense that nothing has really worked?
Hah, I don't blame you for not reading the whole thread, its crazy how long it is!
I am actually trying to convert to back sleeping, but I don't seem to be comfortable all night that way. Maybe because I am too firm or too soft.
On my side it definitely feels like my spine is curved, my hips and abdomen are sunk in and making a U of sorts. I can "fix" this curve in bed by pushing down more on my hips to straighten my spine (if thats a clue). Based on picture (below) I think its most like the too soft example. Although if you notice in the too firm example the abdomen also bends.
On my back it certainly feels like my hips are sinking in too. Again from the picture I would guess too soft, but again I can't really tell (as both cause a bend in the low back).
Yes, nothing in the past has been perfect, I keep wanting a softer comfort layer and I am never sure if I have the support layer right or not. I frankly think the back ache was from moving layers around, so I don't think I want to try moving anything for a little while. Also, backache fist started when I removed the 1" topper, so while in theory that sounds like a better option I hesitate to return to it. But I think I will as soon as back feels better...
Thanks...

 

[twalkman]

When I was in my late 20's I made the change to sleeping on my back, but now that I'm older my wife insists that I sleep on my side so I don't snore -- and I don't blame her.

 

[sandman]

st3v3k4hn wrote:
Hah, I don't blame you for not reading the whole thread, its crazy how long it is!
I am actually trying to convert to back sleeping, but I don't seem to be comfortable all night that way. Maybe because I am too firm or too soft.
On my side it definitely feels like my spine is curved, my hips and abdomen are sunk in and making a U of sorts. I can "fix" this curve in bed by pushing down more on my hips to straighten my spine (if thats a clue). Based on picture (below) I think its most like the too soft example. Although if you notice in the too firm example the abdomen also bends.
On my back it certainly feels like my hips are sinking in too. Again from the picture I would guess too soft, but again I can't really tell (as both cause a bend in the low back).
Yes, nothing in the past has been perfect, I keep wanting a softer comfort layer and I am never sure if I have the support layer right or not. I frankly think the back ache was from moving layers around, so I don't think I want to try moving anything for a little while. Also, backache fist started when I removed the 1" topper, so while in theory that sounds like a better option I hesitate to return to it. But I think I will as soon as back feels better...
Thanks...

It is a bit confusing, because you perception is that it is too soft (sinking in too much), but you seem worse when you make it firmer. This is new information that the back acje started when you removed the 1" topper. As you say, it is possible it started by lifting things. Does your back ache during the whole day, or mainly when you wake up, then get better during the day? Maybe give it some more time.
So, right now you are using S/M/F (the bottom 2 dunlop) with no 1" topper? The dunlop can be a lot firmer than talalay, so you may have a bit too much soft but then below it is gets too firm too quickly. No transistion.
I have never tried their dunlop, but does the medium seem like pretty firm stuff?
And part of the issues might be sleeping both ways. Your setup might be okay for one but not the other.

 

[st3v3k4hn]

sandman wrote:
It is a bit confusing, because you perception is that it is too soft (sinking in too much), but you seem worse when you make it firmer. This is new information that the back acje started when you removed the 1" topper. As you say, it is possible it started by lifting things. Does your back ache during the whole day, or mainly when you wake up, then get better during the day? Maybe give it some more time.
So, right now you are using S/M/F (the bottom 2 dunlop) with no 1" topper? The dunlop can be a lot firmer than talalay, so you may have a bit too much soft but then below it is gets too firm too quickly. No transistion.
I have never tried their dunlop, but does the medium seem like pretty firm stuff?
And part of the issues might be sleeping both ways. Your setup might be okay for one but not the other.

Back aches all day, and has for 4-5 days now, but it gets somewhat better throughout the day as I stretch it, etc. Overall the backache seems to be getting better without changing anything, so I really am thinking it was lifting something, not from the mattress setup per se.
Yes I am sleeping on S/M/F (talalay/dunlop/dunlop); yes the dunlop is noticably firmer. I often wondered if the transition from soft talalay to medium (but firm-feeling) dunlop might cause problems. But Phoenix often talked about building mattresses that way, he called it "differential" layering, where the support layer is really firm and the comfort layer is really soft and all the comfort comes from the top layer. I think a fair number of commercial mattresses are designed this way.
I took pictures of me laying in bed yesterday and decided that I was sinking in too much in any position so I removed the 1" topper before I went to bed last night (well actually I made my wife do it). Removing this 1" soft layer made a big difference - bigger than I would have thought. It feels firmish to me, but it also seems like I am straighter in bed, so I am going to try this for a few nights. If this is about right I might try replacing the 3" soft talalay top layer with a medium talalay layer. I think that would be a bit too firm, but then I can put 1" soft on top of that. That might get me closer to a firm mattress with soft pillowtop feel. It should also make the transition more gradual.

 

[sandman]

You might put your 1" of soft over 2" of medium talalay. Or possibly 2" soft over 1" medium. Hard to say. If you are willing to buy by the inch, you could buy 1" of medium and try that. And try fold in halves if possible to see if adding 1" more of either is better. If your focus is on back sleeping then maybe more of medium than soft. By medium, I might mean around 28 ILD. I think Sleepez medium might be a bit firmer, but might still be okay.

 

[st3v3k4hn]

Well I am trying to work with what i have, which is 3" layers of firm-dunlop, medium dunlop, medium talalay and soft talalay; and a 1" layer of soft talalay.
My strategy now is going to be to optimize for back and get 3 layers that feel just a bit too firm; then add the 1" topper back in and see how much that helps.
Right now I am using (top to bottom) S/M/F (Tal/Dunlop/Dunlop) and that feels firm but about right in terms of support to me, andI know adding the 1" topper makes it too soft again. So I want to compare this to something like M/M/F (T/D/D) with the 1" topper.
If that doesn't work maybe I will go back to using 2 medium dunlops as my "core." Since these mediums are from SleepEz the really are pretty firm. I didn't actually realize how much firmer SleepEz is; I'd say if you like "soft" that might be a reason to favor FloBeds. (Had I known then what I know now I would probably have gone that route).
I think I really need to test these layers again by themselves but I am still too sore to move things around. Definitely getting better though.

 

[sandman]

Okay, sounds like a good strategy. I didn't realize that you had still had the 3" medium talalay.

 

[klas]

The problem seems to be is that there is a big difference between Soft 3" layer and Medium 3", it's basically 10 IDL levels difference. For me having SleepEZ Medium is too firm, but sound like their Soft may be too soft, so I am looking for something in between to try...

 

[sandman]

klas wrote:
The problem seems to be is that there is a big difference between Soft 3" layer and Medium 3", it's basically 10 IDL levels difference. For me having SleepEZ Medium is too firm, but sound like their Soft may be too soft, so I am looking for something in between to try...
I tend to agree. Flobeds is a bit better in that regard. Not sure if sleepez can get pieces at a desired ILD, like 28.
There is a big difference between the soft talalay and the dunlop medium. The medium dunlop would probably be like XF talalay on the flobed scale. So, I think that is okay for the bottom 6", but I personally would not like it in the top 4". as a side sleeper. Back sleepers or stomach sleepers might be a different story.
It can work having a firm base and some soft on top. I have slept on pretty firm innersprings with a couple inches of memory foam. However, I always felt like I was bottoming out on that. Now I like a bit of transition between firm and soft.

 

[klas]

I was told they do not carry 28 IDL, so I am looking to find this somewhere else currently. SLAB has it, but it is a bit expensive...

 

[st3v3k4hn]

klas wrote:
The problem seems to be is that there is a big difference between Soft 3" layer and Medium 3", it's basically 10 IDL levels difference. For me having SleepEZ Medium is too firm, but sound like their Soft may be too soft, so I am looking for something in between to try...
Well I don't really think the 10 ILD jump is that bad. Remember, when they (anyone) say their foam is X ild that really means something like X + or - 2 (eg a 28 ILD foam might really be 26 to 30 ILD). There's got to be some variation there. So offering foam at say 24 and 28 ilds might not really be feasible. Or at least misleading.
In my case there is a very big difference between the soft and medium, but I think thats because my soft is talalay and my medium is dunlop. If you think the sleepez medium is too firm I doubt you would find the soft too soft. Their soft is ~23 ILD, compared to 19 for FloBeds. If you can swap it, its worth a try...

 

[Conservative]

Some tips from my current DIY mattress journey:
I purchased a 3" Layer of Latex International Blended Talalay in 28ILD by getting the Rejuvinite topper in "Firm" (Firm as a top layer, I guess) from http://www.latexmattresscompany.com/rejuvenite.html . It comes with its own cover that I did not need, and has no return policy, but it was significantly cheaper that way.
Also, if you want a softer layer from SleepEZ, then specify that you want Radium Soft instead of LI Soft. I understand the Radium Soft is 20-22ILD, while the LI is 24ILD. That is 10-20% softer.
Gary

 

[klas]

Just realized that my 1.5 inch is softer and according to SZ 28 IDL, so I could just fold it in half and test the concept of having 28 IDL as 3" comfort layer.

 

[st3v3k4hn]

twalkman wrote:
When I was in my late 20's I made the change to sleeping on my back, but now that I'm older my wife insists that I sleep on my side so I don't snore -- and I don't blame her.
Funny, I used to sleep on my back and snore too, which is why I changed to side sleeping. But now I use a CPAP (for sleep apnea); that stops snoring, so I can sleep on my back again...
Just a note to anyone who snores a lot - if you snore and always feel tired and/or sore, it could be because of apnea. You can go to a sleep center and get tested. Using the CPAP helped me a lot...