Scalped my Serta Today..Update 9-13-1 Edited: Storebought count now 22 failed but Breakthrough on DI

[shovel99]

Hi folks. Mattress Surgery initial report. I cut the top off my queen sized Serta Perfect sleeper today.
It was really easy, and just as JImsocal and sandman described. Thanks to their encouragement and documentatin here,
I hope to be sleeping better soon! Took about 15 minutes with a sharp utility knife. Punched through and just held it up and
slice slice slice and the top was off. I am very encouraged that this is going to work out well, and that I will be recomending it
to everyone.
I have already arranged my first trial stack and it feels really, really good. If I don't get it the first time, I am guardedly optitmistic that
some fiddling will get me to a good night's sleep.

If someone can recommend an easy to use picture webhoster, I will put up the pictures I took.
My Serta mattress had from top down:
1. approx .75 inch of soft foam sandwiched between top fabric and a layer of fabric underneath.
2 1 inch Poly foam just like foamdistributing.com's HD36 on top, oddly enough. This is ;pretty firm stuff.
3 1 inch polyfoam just like foamdistributing.com's "supersoft foam" ... next to the springs.
4 A thin layer of carpet backer like fabric (less than 1/8 inch) on top of the springs.
5, foam encased edge coils which helps to hold the form.
The spring system is a bit of a misnomer... it is closer to a box spring than "springs." All the accommodation of your back bone must
be accomplished in the comfort layer, and I understand why I have slept better with beautyrest mattresses. For sure, those individual
coils provide a good bit more accommodation. I may ultimately have to get one of those and do the surgery on it, but for now:

My first stab at comfort layers will be, from top down:
A. 1 inch of 14 ILD extra soft latex from sleeplikeabear.com. This is quite soft & the softest I could find on the internet.
B. 1 inch of 20 ILD "soft" latex from FBM. This piece is considerably softer than the 2 inch piece below, which is supposed to be the same material. This feels like perhaps 60-70% of the ILD or resistivity of the 2 inch piece... so a good bit softer.
C 1x2 inches of 20 ILD so called "soft" latex from foambymail.com It is really dense,firm. When I lie on 2x2 inches on the springs on my back, I only have five contact points: calves, butt, shoulder blades.
D 1/2 inch of fairly firm foam from foamdistributing.com to protect the latex layer
As soft as this sounds, while lying on my back, it is quite supportive. I do not penetrate the latex surface much. My whole back is in contact, but I do not sink in much. ( 170 lb back and side sleeper with lower back pain.)
I actually expect it may not be quite soft enough for me, and will add 1 inch of 4 lb eco friendly memory foam (overstock.com green streaked stuff... quite good quality)... or 2 layers of the 14 ILD... etc. Firmer.... replace 14 ILD with second inch of 20 ILD....
I will report how this works out and the evolution, and will put up pictures if someone can point me to a picture hoster.
Update 9-13-10
After two more failures at storebought mattresses out of frustration with little progress on stacking my own surgery mattress, I had more pain from the bought mattresses and had to come back to DIY, and have some interesting progress to report. Taking this to a new thread with a possible breakthrough for we lower back sufferers, as well as some do's and don'ts .

shovel99

 

[sandman]

Congrats! Yes, pretty easy to take a part. The one trick I discovered was to pull the top tight where I was cutting to make it easier to get a clean cut.
Tinypic.com is what I have use for free photo webhosting. Can't remember exactly how it works, but I think you will end up with a URL for each picture that you can cut and paste into to a posting. You have to size the picture right, so it fits the screen the way you want it to (not too big or small).
Don't worry about what you think is the right amount of foam. Just figure out what works. I use 5-6".
I agree that the interlaced coils really don't provide much comfort. Just a bit of give, perhaps equivalent to super firm latex. My perception is the almost all of the feel and comfort comes from the foam I have above the coils. Although, I would guess if I put all of the foam on the floor it would feel firmer. Might be interesting to compare some time.

 

[Kait]

Good job! I wonder what type of springs that mattress has? If you don't like your coils, probably easy to find a used mattress that has good ones and crappy foam you could cut into for cheap. That was my next plan until I found my bed.
Kait

 

[shovel99]

Report 2. First night as indicated was not quite so Yayyyy. The bed was firmer than I want, not much of an improvement on 5 years of mattress hell. I was overly optimistic that I would hit a homer first time with this new bat. Or is this the new home plate?
Soul searching moments: "Now you have gone and done it! You can't even sell this crappy mattress to anyone!" (Well, that is what my sweet wife said before I started....)
Comparing the start of Post Op Surgery to the beginning of the Mattess Trail five or six years ago, I thought "this is asinine.. I am going out to buy a Beautyrest".... and spent an hour or so on the Dark Side (Simmons factory outlet one mile from my house.) I almost brought home a classic BR mattress only for the rich amount of $300 ... or a mismarked Simmons (think it is latex" for $400. Ummmmmm... both felt pretty darn good. But they all feel good in the showroom.
But came back thinking I can always cave and do that later. Must try a few more layers before folding like a circus tent.
What I have learned, getting inside the Serta:
1. Serta continuous coil is not much more than a steel box spring.. almost no give at all, so all the softness and body conforming must come from the foam layers. So my previous 1- 3 inches of latex layers on top of the mattress, were further softened by 3 more inches of internal foam in the Serta. Therefore: it will take many inches of foam layers to give me the equivalent of a Simmons Beautyrest with independent pocketed coils.
2. I may not be able to compensate this Serta with layers that will mimic the contouring capability of Simmons Beautyrest.
3. Last night's 4 inches as outlined, the mattess was way too firm.. not nearly as conforming as nearly everything in the Simmons store. I don't have enough soft foam layers yet.
Tonight: 2 x 1 inch of supersoft foam on the bottom. 2 x 1 inch of FBM 20 ILD Soft latex. 1 inch SLAB 14 ILD latex. 1 inch of Overstock.com 4 lb memory foam.
Wish me luck!
shovel99

 

[sandman]

Sorry that it not working so far. More foam should help, but hard to say what will be just right. Did you keep any of the Serta pieces? You might want to throw 1-2" of the firmer stuff on the bottom to help build up your stack.
I agree that the the springs themselves are pretty firm. I think in the cutting corner process, they now stamp these things out in a way that may not be that comfortable, then they slap 6" of cheap foam on top to make it feel soft enough. The box springs are a joke as well.
I have one that has a high coil count, and I think now that less might have been better. Can't be sure though without trying.
You may need individual coils or zoning to get it up to the comfort level you want.
Anyway, if you are like me you will end up with what is essentially a foam bed. Right now I am using 2" of 32 ILD latex + 1" of 24 latex + 1" of 19 latex + 1" of 5lb. Sensus + 1" of 4lb. + wool topper (which might actually make it firmer - less sinking in). I also cut out a portion of the 2" 32 under my shoulders and put in a custom cut 20 (I think) piece of latex. That reduced shoulder pressure a bit. Most people here would think this would be way to soft, but I have not had any back problems, and I toss and turn less with the softer configurations.
Overall, I find it pretty comfortable. Frankly, I am not sure that anything would be 100% comfortable for me over an 8 hour period. I still develop some pressure points but not too bad. They may be the inevitable results of physics and anatomy.

 

[sandman]

One other thing I would note is that the upper end innersprings (check out the Royal Pedic website) put layers of cotton and wool in their mattresses (beyond having better coils and box springs as well). I am not sure if that is an important component to making a comfortable innerspring or not. I use a thin wool topper, and sometimes wonder whether another layer of wool or cotton would be a good idea. Gaiam seems to have some decent prices for wool toppers, but not sure how much the quality can vary in different brands.

 

[shovel99]

Thanks for the additional help, Sandman.
After another frustrating night of no progress, I have concluded that I would not "get there from here" on the Serta linked spring.
I went
Here in the ATL mattress wholesalers are offering invenstory scuffs, closeouts for dirt cheap. I went to the supplier with the most inventory with the intent of bringing home a Simmons World Class which would have foam edge casing if I have to "operate" again, and compared a Simmons World Class and Sealy Reserve in cushion firm.
The Too Hard from my firm serta could either be coming from (1) too stiff coils which I now know that the coil gauge is thicker for stiffer mattresses (one of the many lies of mattress salesmen: the springs are all the same.. only the comfort layers change) or (2) poicketed coils can accommodate better. I really wanted to like the simmons for that reason, but even before bringing it home, the Simmons just felt like it was "sinking" a bit at my butt... the Sealy cushion firm just felt better, so for $470 tied to the top of my SUV.. I am hoping I am out of the mattress building biz.
Or can reconstruct it at a future date, if necessary.
Or spend another $470 for a Simmons World Class with a scuff or ding if this one doesn't ring my bell.
I could easily spend a bunch more than that on latex slabs.. without the luxury of being able to try.
This is all so unbelievably frustrating.
shovel99

 

[sandman]

To bad it did not work out. What is it that you don't like about it? Sealy Reseve cushion firm is essentially what I have (before surgery). I don't think the coils are not too stiff, but there are a lot of them. And of course it is interlaced, so it cannot really contour to your body that much. Mine had a few layers of their cheap Sealy foam, so that might be an issue. The question is are any of these cheaper coil systems very good or do you have to really pay up for something that is both comfortable and supportive? Not sure on that. Mine essentially functions as a firm base layer, like a super firm latex.

 

[shovel99]

Sandman, thanks for the continued support.
This is one more chapter of "I have to laugh."
My current direction is to pick out and buy either a Simmons World Class or Sealy Reserve in plush, because in reviewing all my misadventures back 4-5 years of "new mattress"... they have all been either firm or on the firm side of plush.... not accommodating my side sleep... wake up in pain.
So I track down a "scuff and mark" wholesaling mattress store selling all the S brands and a pretty wide selection through Craigslist and drive 30 miles out to the Burbs of Atlanta.
Most of their product is in stacks in their warehouse with broken AC.. doors open, at least 90 degrees. The owner son pulls what you want to lay on down off the stack and you lie on it on the concrete floor. In the 90 degree heat. But prices are great.... like $470 drive out for a Sealy Reserve (mattress only)... tied to my SUV roof.
I compare Simmons World Class (thinking I need the pocketed coils) and Cushion Firm Sealy Reserve. I chose the Sealy because it felt softer, more support in hips than the Simmons. I thought it was really, really curious that the cushion firm felt that soft... but it did feel great.. and I was excited to be nearly done.
My brother helped me carry it in and swap it out next morning (afer it cools!) I lie on it. Yikes! It is really firm. Really firm.... now this feels like cushion firm.. and I do not want a cushion firm.. I want soft, like it felt in the warehouse. I thought I was losing my mind. How could it change that much? How could I be that far off? This is why mattess buying is so disgustingly awful!
At midnight, when I could not sleep on this new rock... it came to me. Was this a memory foam mattress? Memory foam would go soft at 90 degrees.. all the way through. You never know if it isn't new in the showroom, etc, and not even then!
So I looked up the model on the net and sure enough... this was a memory foam mattress.. at least some mem foam.. and for me.. enought to make the comfort layer very firm to me!!!! Screwed again!!!!
After some begging and pleading, they agreed to swap it out. (But not before i dragged my poor surgery Serta back into my basement from the front yard, if they were not going to play ball!) Went back today and compared a Simmons Beautyrest World Class that leaned a bit between plush and cushion firm... and the Sealy Reserve Plush that was plush... but supportive. The doors were closed and AC on in the warehouse, today. After much flopping... chose the Sealy as both soft but supportive. Hopefully it works!
For sandman... I believe I have failed until now by (1) attempting to buy a too firm mattress or (2) start with a too firm mattress base for surgery to make accommodating for my side sleep with the DIY products available and (3) the DIY products dont really get down to the softness available in all the manufactured mattresses. Softest I have found are 14 ILD + in all products.
The last time I slept well at home was on a tired old quite soft Beautyrest with basic old foam in it.. probably not too much foam, because this was not expensive years ago.
If you read all the specs for the S mattresses, almost all of them have 11 ILD super soft foam in some of the top layers. I could absolutely not find any soft PU foam like that.
At best, even if this new Sealy works for me, eventually I will have to replace the comfort layer, and will likely do so by mattress surgery. What I hope to learn tonight.. next few days, is that I can sleep on this now.. and face replacing the cheap foam that I find comfortable some time in the future. And before then, to find true 11 ILD super soft foam in thin layer thicknesses. Even the 14 ILD latex is not as soft as the PU foam the majors are using.. that I find comfortable.
So I'll see.
If this is no better, I will have tried the entire spectrum and the bad back my be dictating.

shovel99

 

[shovel99]

Sandman,
I did keep all the Serta parts.. but as noted, I already had identical pieces of the two 1 inch PU foams.. and tried every combination.
If bought mattress doesn't work.. not sure which direction!
shovel99

 

[sandman]

One problem I had with the Sealy is that the foam ("Sealy foam") seemed too low of density to support me. I measured one piece at 1.2 density. So, it might have started off feeling firm, but by the end of the night I sunk way in. It was also too hot, witth the PU foam tufted into the cover. So, I feel that my current situation (using latex, memory foam and wool), while not perfect, is much better than the Sealy Reserve Cushion firm that I started with. I still deal with a tradeoff between comfort and support, and there probably is no perfect solution.
You may have liked the Simmons due to the individual (and probably higher quality back then) coils. Maybe they provided most of the support and body contouring, and the foam had less of a role. Possibly the foam (or whatever they used) was better back then as well.
I would think the 3-4 pound density memory foam would be soft enough for your needs. This place sells custom foam down to 10 ILD
Let us know how it works out!