Simmons BackGuard

[ZZZZ]

Hi. Got a Simmons BackGuard last week after returning an NXG 250 Firm which turned out to be both too soft and too hard at the same time (butt sank too much, back was pulling while shoulders were in pain and arms went numb). The BackGuard has zones (thinner coils under hips and shoulders and very firm for lumbar support) that I can distinguished with my ribs when I lay on my side after a minute or so (I weigh 250 lbs). Every morning, I wake up in pain (shoulders, ribs, back) so I'm looking for a topper but don't want to go overbaord to avoid making it too soft. Budget is limited so I'm leaning toward Foambymail latex topper. Don't know if I should go for 20 or 32 ILD. Any advice?
Also, does anybody know how bad will their topper smell? How long before it dissipates?

 

[ZZZZ]

Tried fixing problem by adding one inch of egg crate PU foam and one inch 20 ILD latex topper from Foambymail. Making progress but can still definitely feel the difference of support between the very hard lumbar and thigh zone and the middle of the bed enough to affect confort and prevent sleep. Tried placing a piece of foam (one inch regular PU foam folded in two) between box and mattress, running accross the width of the bed. Instantly noticed a difference, made the bed much firmer and took away most of the difference noticed in zones. Bed was actually so firm that I woke up with with a very sore lower back. Will try to experiment with something thinner (maybe 3/4 x 1 x piece of wood) and inverting egg crate and latex topper (so far, I placed the latex on top). If anyone has an idea, let me know. Thanks.

 

[DianeK]

I think at your weight you are going to need 3 inches of topper to make much difference. Do you have an upholstery company in your area where you could pick up a cheap, soft PU foam to experiment with?

 

[ZZZZ]

Just played with it for two hours and no progress at all. I'm starting to think there's no point into pursuing to fix it and mattress surgery wouldn't change the fact that this mattress has two different gages of coils. It will never be even or comfortable. In retrospect, what a mistake I made... again! Everybody around me thinks I've gone bananas because it's been weeks I haven't got any real sleep and I eat Advil like candies all day long. "What? Not your mattress stories again!"
Hell, there's been many rough nights where the pain takes all the place in your mind and all you can feel is despair. Being afraid to go to bed is a terrible feeling. Although I've wasted a lot of money so far and feel terrible and ashamed about it, it's not even a question of dollars anymore; it's about getting back to a normal life. Depriving a human being of sleep on a long period has a very peculiar effect on the way you see things, enough to alter one's judgement, or so it seems.
Back to shop for a mattress but my tender half won't hear of a foam mattress. I now realize that the challenge in getting a spring mattress for a heavy person is to make the right compromise between support and comfort. Too much padding or week coils and you're going to sag and wake up with a back ache. Not enough padding or too hard coils and you won't sleep at all. It didn't use to be so complicated, but then again, I used to weight 160.
Is there anything more depressing than looking at mattresses scam ads and talking to salesmen who are bullshiting you all the time? I'd sooner go for root canal at the dentist...
P.S.: I have to say that the topper from Foambymail is well made, pretty much odourless and affordable but not as soft as I thought it would be. If anyone is afraid of ordering it because it's too soft, don't be.

 

[Phoenix]

Simmons seems to have it backwards...
Most of your body weight is in your lower torso area. Because of this your hips (on your side) or your rear end (on your back) will tend to sink in more because of that weight. Most zoned support systems (either coils or foam zoning) will usually put MORE support there to stop them from sinking in too far and putting your spine out of alignment. Simmons puts less support there so your hips or rear end would sink in more and the waist or lumbar area where the greater support is in this zoning scheme would be supporting more of your weight. This certainly isn't "normal" for most body weight distributions and even if your spine is in alignment this way, the small of your back (lumbar area) could be supporting too much weight. This is compounded by your weight and the guage of the backcare coils which are relatively thin and would make this effect even worse.
On the other hand, most people's shoulders have less weight than the hips but they are wider than the hips. They need to sink in more relative to the hips (especially with side sleeping). Zoning systems should reflect this by having a shoulder zone softer than the hips.
Basically multi zoning systems (more than 2 or 3) are more about marketing than real world performance since if there is a need for zoning in a typical mattress it is to have a firmer hip area relative to the shoulders. This could be accomplished by having a firmer hip area (typical 3 zone with a firmer zone in the middle which is most commonly what you see) or a softer shoulder area (2 zone which you rarely see). Both ways you would get closer to alignment based on the body makeup of most people.
If the zones are out or whack, not different enough, or reversed, then the comfort layers or a topper won't change the underlying "flaw". Hips typically need a soft comfort layer to distribute pressure since they are bearing more weight on the support layers. This softer comfort layer will also offer some support to the small of the back in a correct construction. In other words the comfort layers need to allow enough sinking in of the hips that there is not a "gap" between the mattress and the more "recessed" waist or lumbar area.
I really don't understand why Simmons does this ... it's truly wierd and different from other manufacturers ... and it's no wonder with your weight distribution that it's causing "issues".
Phoenix

 

[Phoenix]

If I was in your shoes ... and bearing in mind that trying this won't fix the underlying issue ... I would try a firmer piece of foam under your hips of at least 2" and softer foam in your shoulder area. Both the latex you have and the egg crate would qualify as "soft". You could experiment with this by buying a firmer piece of 2" poly (would cost a lot less to experiment) and cutting it above your hips (around your belly button). This would help to "keep your hips up". Then you could use the eggcrate (either by itself if it is already 2" or doubled if it is 1") from the cut point to the top of your mattress. I wouldn't cut or use the latex at this point. What you would be doing in a way is using the comfort layers to do what the support layers should be doing because the support layers are doing what the comfort layers should be doing. I would use as firm an ILD in the hip poly area as you believe would not cause pressure issues. Buying only 1" of firmer poly and doubling it wouldn't work because the "cut point" would be more than half of the length of the mattress.
I realize this is not ideal but for the cost of a fairly inexpensive 2" poly layer you could get a sense if this would help. 3" would probably be better but you could always add it and/or change material if you had a clear sense that this would help you. This is one of those cases where it would probably be a good thing to "diminish" the effect of the underlying support system by adding thicker layers.
Phoenix

 

[Phoenix]

I should also add for the sake of completeness that this zoning scheme may have some value in certain circumstances. If a side sleeper was much lighter and had much wider hips than waist and liked a firm feeling mattress with thinner comfort layers (didn't like the feeling of sinking in), they may need a support system that allows their hips to sink in enough to create spinal alignment and allow a thinner comfort layer to distribute pressure better. I don't think from what you've posted that you "qualify" for this scenario
Phoenix

 

[MattressExpert]

ZZZZ wrote:
Hi. Got a Simmons BackGuard last week after returning an NXG 250 Firm which turned out to be both too soft and too hard at the same time (butt sank too much, back was pulling while shoulders were in pain and arms went numb). The BackGuard has zones (thinner coils under hips and shoulders and very firm for lumbar support) that I can distinguished with my ribs when I lay on my side after a minute or so (I weigh 250 lbs). Every morning, I wake up in pain (shoulders, ribs, back) so I'm looking for a topper but don't want to go overbaord to avoid making it too soft. Budget is limited so I'm leaning toward Foambymail latex topper. Don't know if I should go for 20 or 32 ILD. Any advice?


Also, does anybody know how bad will their topper smell? How long before it dissipates?

First off, the NXG 250 is a SOFT mattress...the 250 represents 2.5'' of "new generation memory foam" hence the "NXG". Which model Backgaurd did you buy?

 

[ZZZZ]

I know the 250 is soft but yet, it was cutting the circulation in my arms after 5 minutes, every time. That's why I said it was both too soft and too hard at the same time, no give at all at the shoulders.
The BackGuard I got is a tight top, considered firm but not too firm.

 

[ZZZZ]

Followed Pheonix advice last night and added a 2.5 inches piece of quality foam to add support in the middle of the bed. Change was immediate as I even had to change from a thin to a thicker pillow to be able to sleep on my side. I didn't change the setup for shoulders but I should have had since arms went numb all night long and my neck is a little sore. Lower back pain is still present, but has improved by at least 60% I'd say. We'll see if a second night of sleep continues on this trend. I'll try to find a thinner and softer foam for my shoulders. The bed now has a big hump on my side when nobody lies in it but surely enough, when I'm in it, it feels flat! I realize that this could only be a temporary solution.
A friend of mine who lives too far to go visit and try his mattress says he purchased the Hampton Inn set a few months ago and that he's extremely happy with it, even though he and his wife are on the heavy side. It's a Serta Tranquility Nights, plush tight top, two-sided mattress. I remember getting a good night sleep myself when we stayed at a Hampton Inn last year. I don't know if it would last a long time but if anyone has any opinion on it, I'd like to hear it.

 

[DianeK]

ZZZZ wrote:
It's a Serta Tranquility Nights, plush tight top, two-sided mattress. I remember getting a good night sleep myself when we stayed at a Hampton Inn last year. I don't know if it would last a long time but if anyone has any opinion on it, I'd like to hear it.
When I stayed at a Hampton Inn a couple of years ago, the first night was heaven and I thought I had found my bed. It was a Serta with a thin pillowtop. Second night, not so great as I woke up with mild lower back pain in the a.m.. After the third night, when I couldn't touch my toes in the morning because my back was so stiff, I was glad we had stayed there three nights because I would have made an incorrect conclusion after only the first night. Lesson to be learned: no matter how comfortable a bed feels in the store, or after one night, you don't know for sure until multiple sleeps.

 

[Phoenix]

Mattress comfort is so subjective and proper support can be so individual that it's a little risky to go with what someone else finds works for them. Are you able to get a refund and "start over" or are you limited to an exchange from the store you bought your mattress? Either way I would try to use your experiences so far to develop an idea of the kind of construction and some of the different qualities you would need in a mattress so you had a "plan of action" about what to do next.
Your experience last night is encouraging because it at least gives some real clues about the direction you may need to go.
Phoenix
I just reread my earlier post and just to be clear ... the idea was to have 2" of firmer foam from the foot of your bed to just past your belly button and then 2" of softer foam from there to the head of your bed. This way you would still have an even top of your mattress. What you did though was a good idea and in the same "direction". It seemed to give a clear indication that this is the direction to go if you either choose to or have to keep the mattress.

 

[ZZZZ]

Been shopping for a few days and intend to stick with a tight top, firm to mid-firm model. Would have loved an old fashioned two-sided but I only found cheap ones that aren't firm enough, more intended for a kid. Too bad.
So far, I found those two (also available with different variations from stores to stores):
http://www.sleepcountry.ca/mattress-accessories/mattresses/sub_categories/pocket_coil/products/4
http://www.sleepcountry.ca/mattress-accessories/mattresses/sub_categories/innerspring/products/1
They'd be both on the firm side to start with but I think they could become comfortable with the latex topper.
I have two questions. For someone as heavy as me, is it better to go with pocket coils or interlocked springs? Obviously, the Simmons seems to transfer less motion, which is a plus but I wonder if the Sealy might last longer and sag less, while being able to distribute the weight more evenly than the individual coils.
Also, different stores have different variations of the same models, without the center 1/3 Lumbar Support featured as an exclusivity in the Sleep Country models (same gage of coils for the whole bed but the 1/3 center of the mattress is reinforced instead of just two zones - lumbar and thighs, like on the BackGuard. The Simmons has slightly denser padding in the middle while the Sealy has its center reinforced with extra threading, or so I'm told. Sounds like a good idea for someone who is overweight but now I'm weary of zones altogether. Would you go with the stronger center or the even surface? Prices are similar.

 

[DianeK]

IMHO, pocket coils are better for people that have either broad shoulders or broad hips, as those areas are allowed more give with the pocket coil. A more evenly proportioned, higher weight individual would probably do better on a non-pocket coil.

 

[Phoenix]

It sounds like you were able to return the Backguard which if true is good news.
I would not buy any mattress that I didn't know the details of what is inside it. It's just too risky. I would also be very careful buying a mattress that had a lot of polyfoam in the upper layers. Sleep Country has no details of what is in these mattresses. I would ask them for a layer by layer description and if they won't give it to you ... walk away.
If you have to buy from Sleep Country because of a mattress exchange, then get as many details as you can (coil count/size, coil guage, height of the mattress, special features, and any other details you can). This way the mattress can be matched to an outlet that provides the same or almost same mattress under a different name and does provide construction details. That information can help a lot to determine whether either mattress would be suitable for you.
My personal opinion which is probably shared with most people here is I would tend to stay away from "S" brand mattresses.
Phoenix

 

[ZZZZ]

Unfortunately, the store where I purchased the BackGuard did not want to take it back, only one exchange allowed. I can understand that. I even offered to just trade it in for a small credit that I could have applied later to purchase a bed for one of my kids, but no can do. There's always Kijiji or Craigslist but with all the reports on bed bugs infestation, it's very difficult to sell a used mattress and I don't have a garage or any spare room to store a mattress. I'll offer to give it to a friend who told me he also hates his mattress but if he doesn't want it, it will just end in the trash. At least, I can still use the box spring.
The Beautyrest has pretty much the same specs in all stores: 800 coils, 13.75 gage. Some have a reinforced middle (not sure I want that) or a padded contour but that's pretty much it, I didn't see any with latex. All the tight tops have a mix of PU foam and wool (probably very little wool). I know it's cheap and won't last but there isn't much of it, so I may get a few years out of it. Moreover, at this point, I just urgently need something to sleep on and can't afford to pay 2 or 3 more thousand dollars for a nice Marshall two-sided mattress (http://www.marshallmattress.com/index.html), having already lost 2K.
I decided to invest one more day into my quest, so I will visit two more stores tomorrow. Whatever the outcome, I have to try something new soon, having already suffered one month on a bed that literally brakes my back and is quickly turning me into a sore and obsessed zombie...

 

[Phoenix]

I used to live in TO for a few years ... in Pickering and then near Lawrence and Allen
There are quite a few options there regarding latex. Let me look through my list and see what I can find. I'll post in an hour or two after I have done some stuff I need to do.
Phoenix

 

[Phoenix]

You have a lot of options besides Marshall ... and with very reasonable prices. Most of these are mattress manufacturers although there are a few retailers as well that seemed to have a decent selection outside of the "S" brands at reasonable prices. I'm not sure where in Toronto you are so I included some which may be too far away. There may be a few here (such as Pafgroup and Sleepking) that only sell to retailers but they are still probably worth a call to see if there is a good retail oulet with good choices close to you. They are usually willing to help here. There are some very good options here
I would be a little careful about buying your next mattress so quickly. I know you are in pain but what looks good in that short a time could end up becoming another problem. You also have an option (the "zoning system I menioned earlier") that could ... at least temporarily ... alleviate your problem enough that you would have enough time to choose a mattress that would help you much more over the long term. The feeling of "I need to act now" is a recipe for choices you may not be happy with.
Another very inexpensive ... although temporary (months/years) would be to order a poly foam mattress from a place like the foam store that was suitable for your weight distribution and sleeping style.
Before any of this though ... I believe it is important to have an idea of the kind of mattress that was suitable for you ... without that you will probably tend to rely on how it "feels" in the store and possibly/probably end up spending more money on another "problem".
Have you experimented any more with the foam you had? Are you still considering trying your options I mentioned earlier both to give you some time and to find out what type of mattress would work for you? What is the size you are looking for and the midrange of your budget (the price you really don't want to go above but that you would consider exceeding for the perfect mattress at an amazing price)?
With the choices you have you should be able to solve all your mattress issues.
Phoenix
http://www.idealmattress.com/contact.html
http://www.factorymattress.com/contactus.html
http://www.dreameasy.com/contact-us
http://www.pafgroup.com/matresses.htm
http://www.sleepking.ca/index.php?page=contact_us.html
http://www.springtech.ca/
http://kingsandqueens-mattress.com/about_us.html
http://www.crate.ca/locations.htm
http://www.bestwaybedding.com/ Probably a ways away but I thought they were worth including
http://www.bbbedding.com/Affiliated-Locations.page
http://www.thefoamstore.ca/pro_mattresses.php
http://www.downundertoronto.com/sitepages/index.php?page_id=23
http://galaxybedding.ca/contactus.asp
http://www.flexopedicmattress.com/aboutus/
http://www.dreamstarbedding.com/contact.html

 

[ZZZZ]

So sorry you went through the trouble of digging up all of those manufacturers and retailers in the Toronto area. I mentioned Marshall because I heard of them and I know a retailer who carries it in Montreal - I think I would like this model:

http://www.marshallmattress.com/Collection/Elite/Elite_Detail/superior.html
I should have mentioned that I actually live in Laval, QC. I have two jobs so it’s very difficult for me to dedicate a lot of time to this problem (not to mention the tensions it has created on my marriage) but I intend to take a look at what this manufacturer has to offer: http://www.matelasbourck.qc.ca. There’s a few more, such as Mirabel and Dauphin but I know very little about them and I have no way of knowing if what they make is actually better or worse than the 3 S, mattresses remaining a blind purchase. I’m still going to investigate each of the links you provided. For instance, this might work: http://kingsandqueens-mattress.com/madrid.html.
I know there’s a great risk of making another mistake by rushing into something but somehow, it just seems hard to believe that there wouldn’t be many mattresses out there that could work for me. However, having said that, I did learn the hard way that getting a new bed once you’ve gained a lot of weight can prove to be a considerable challenge and that I have to be weary of anything that is zoned or too soft. Most people are simply advising me to go with the firmest mattress I can find and add toppers to it (as much as it will take), or else it will sag quickly. One of the independent manufacturers told me today over the phone that because of my weight, I should not even consider continuous coil and stick with pocket coils. He advised to stick with the hardest model he has and that’s it. That came as a shock to me as I never fully realized until now that I have become an anomaly and that being this heavy narrowed down my choices so much since I had never before had a problem sleeping in any hotels or motels and I do travel a lot. I was also sleeping fine on our old mattress (too bad I didn’t keep it). So far, I only attributed this ordeal on making wrong choices but it seems that I fall into a category that is too extreme for “regular” mattresses.
Ideally, I’m guessing I would need a tight top with strong pocket coils (gage 13 or perhaps 12) and little padding, mostly latex if possible; firm enough that my rear end sinks just a little. I know that Simmons has a World Class model (980 coils, gage 13.75, same as there was in the NXG 250) with just a little poly and latex. This mattress alone runs around 1300$ on this side of the border and I’m not sure it’s worth spending twice as much on it than I would on a firm Classic, on which I could throw my own latex topper. Of course, if I’d be absolutely certain that this is what I need; I would splurge another 1500 dollars and go for it. It’s just that after making huge and costly mistake, one tends to err of the caution side...
Yes, I did experiment some more and played musical toppers but haven’t yet find any solution to the “hump” problem. Granted, I could purchase enough firm poly to fill the 3 zones that are lower and then throw a thick topper over it but since that would be a temporary solution at best; I don’t want to throw anything else into this money pit. Right now, I rely on sleeping pills to fall asleep and wake up 3 or 3 hours later in horrible pain. I can’t stay any longer. I know I can’t keep this up much longer, hence my hurry.
Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

 

[Phoenix]

I should never have made the assumption that you were in Toronto but the list didn't take long because I only had to search through my list for Ontario and then do a quick check to make sure they had something. If anything Quebec is even better since there are more manufacturers there than anywhere else in Canada. I could certainly look though again for Quebec if you'd like but some of them I couldn't read their website since my french is rudimentary.
In general terms I believe that you can expect to get better value from almost all local or regional manufacturers than you can by going with any of the "S" brands. They all use way too much poly in all their mattresses that are anywhere close to your budget and even the ones that don't are way overpriced compared to almost all the other options you have.
If you did buy a mattress sight unseen, then in your case it should be firm springs over a thinner layer that you could use as a base for customized layers over it. Even good innersprings with a natural cotton/wool stuffing would be suitable here. Zoning in your case could also be very useful ... it would just have to be correct. The "S" brands don't make anything like this that would be suitable IMO. They all have too much poor quality poly over the springs that would make them completely unsuitable to use as a base. Almost all local manufacturers do make something that would be suitable however if you explain what you plan to do. In this group some have much greater value than others but in my experience even the worst of them are typically better value than most of what is available from the S brands.
If you plan to go with buying something sight unseen along these lines, post here first as I certainly know a few places that would be suitable and have good value.
A very high quality poly base with latex over it would be another option that would likely work at a much lower cost and with similar benefits to all latex. The tradeoff here would be the support base would not last quite as long as latex but the higher quality polyfoams that are available and used in support cores are relatively long lasting and good quality. It is in the materials used ... especially by the S manufacturers ... in the upper layers where most of the polyfoam problem exists.
Let me know what direction you want to go if you think I can help in any way.
Phoenix.