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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Alexander wrote: I don't think your assessment is fair to Englander. While I'm unfamiliar with Englander specifically I am familiar with the major "S" brands. You spent how much on this mattress? $250 if I recall correctly? Sir, you purchased the dirt cheap bottom-end line of beds. Why are you surprised that a cheap bed is made of cheap components? Did you expect Talalay in a $250 mattress? Consistent Density memory foam? You can spend more than $250 on a decent Topper, much less the whole mattress. Let's not be misleading. It doesn't make sense to go out and buy a $5000 Kia and then complain when it doesn't have a Hemi engine, 4 wheel drive, or heated leather interior. -Alex Alex, my indictment is of all the S brands (and other mass marketed) lower and medium end mattresses. I'm not yet sure about the higher end S brands. Please provide stats on higher end S brand mattresses that are worth buying. This forum is for "What's the best mattress?" So your input is welcome if you dare to challenge us to examine your stats on what you consider to be a "worthy" S brand or mass market - under $2000 - mattress. If Sealy or whoever makes a great $1500 mattress, I'd like to know what's in it! I do not say this facetiously. I really would be pleased to know that there are some S brands making good mattresses - mattresses that do NOT have too much cheap PU foam, mattresses that do not have pillow tops that will break down within 1 week, 3 months or a year and cause people's backs to hurt. I would love to answer the questions people often pose here, "So which mattress should I buy? I want a SPRING mattress that is good!" with a recommendation for something other than a specialty bed that is over $2000. And even some of those I am skeptical about... One thing the S brands need to do is stop making pillow tops that break down quickly and hurt people's backs because they have 5" of cheap PU foam on top of the springs! That is just unacceptable, and in my opinion as long as they do this injustice to people, they deserve my condemnation. I have a family member who just bought a pillow-top mattress and it is killing their backs after 1 week but the store won't take it back. Added: Your mentioning of Stearns and Foster in another thread made me wonder if they make some good mattresses. I went to their web page here: http://www.stearnsandfoster.com/ComparisonChart.aspx Curiously, they do not tell me what ILD's or thicknesses or types of foam are inside. Do you have that information? They mention "memory foam" and "latex" as being inside some of them, but don't say how much or what ILD's or which process the latex is made from, nor how much PU foam and of what type and density it is. I can understand that maybe the average buyer would not know the difference, anyway. But it seems they are relying on the average buyer to know that "latex" means quality. Yet, they are probably (?) just putting enough latex in there to entice them with that word, but then surrounding it with cheap PU foam. Or am I wrong on that? Please provide specs that prove me wrong and I'll gladly admit it! This message was modified Sep 6, 2009 by jimsocal
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I have to agree with Jim. I first started out looking at Stearns and Fosters three top of the line "All foam" mattress and box springs. The least expensive was $2800, the middle was $3500, and the top was $4000. These were all three California Kings. They all three had a latex core of 8.75 inches of luxury latex. I later found out that this is synthetic foam, petroleum-based, not genuine organic latex. The principal difference between the three mattresses was in what they call their “comfort level” the least expensive mattress had 1 inch of supersoft flawless foam, whatever that is. The $3500 mattress had three quarter-inch genuine latex, 1” flawless foam, Versare inner panel, whatever that is, then one and ½ inch convoluted genuine latex foam, and finally one and ½ inch supersoft flawless foam. The top-of-the-line $4000 mattress added an additional three-quarter inch genuine latex foam and ½ inch supersoft flawless foam to the $3500 comfort layers The quilted panel on top was pretty much the same consisting of 1.3 ounces flame guard silk/wool blend, 1.5” supersoft convoluted supersoft foam and 1” supersoft flawless foam. All three mattresses had a box spring called ultra steel. The problem with all three of these mattresses is trying to find out what you’re actually buying. The illustration that went along with these three mattresses was basically all the same. Until someone was willing to spend from $2800-$4000 and take a surgical knife to them, you would never know for sure what you were actually purchasing. A person I know, who used to sell for this mattress chain, told me that there regional supervisor made the comment that “They could hide a bicycle in one of their mattresses, and the average customer would never know the difference.” I can see how this could be true. If you took the handlebars, wheels, and the pedals off of a bicycle it could very easily be stuffed in the middle of all this super soft foam, it might just add some additional stiffening to their mattress. But the point I want to make here is this. Think what kind of arrogance this shows toward their customers! Forever and a day the mattress companies have realized that the average consumer has very little knowledge about the mattress they sleep on. They go into the showroom lay down on the mattress and if it feels comfortable, the cover is attractive, the price seems reasonable, and the salesperson is pleasant and seems knowledgeable and informed, more than likely they will buy it. End of story. |
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eagle2 wrote: I have to agree with Jim. I first started out looking at Stearns and Fosters three top of the line "All foam" mattress and box springs. The least expensive was $2800, the middle was $3500, and the top was $4000. These were all three California Kings. [edited for brevity] Forever and a day the mattress companies have realized that the average consumer has very little knowledge about the mattress they sleep on. They go into the showroom lay down on the mattress and if it feels comfortable, the cover is attractive, the price seems reasonable, and the salesperson is pleasant and seems knowledgeable and informed, more than likely they will buy it. End of story. Yes, what we really need is a law requiring FULL DISCLOSURE re mattresses. They should be required to list what is inside the mattress, from the type and ILD and thicknesses of foams, to gauge, type and count of springs. One cannot possibly comparison shop a mattress with the info you are [not] given by the manufacturers. And my experience is that when I start asking questions, the salesmen's heads explode. One guy practically told me to just get out of his store, he had no info to give me. And the others just said "Well, I'll see what I can find out" and then came back with only partial information. I would admire a company for listing the above information. And thus, an informed consumer like those of us here on this forum, could decide, for example: "Well, it is obvious that the lower end line of mattresses of this company are junk, but the higher end seem to be worthwhile." So that way, it would benefit the company because we could clearly see that in order to get quality ingredients we have to spend more. The problem is, the way it is right now, I really do not have faith that the higher end more expensive mattresses DO have better quality foams or are made to be any more supportive. Only by knowing what the mattress is made of can a consumer make an informed choice. And my experience is that the manufacturers do not want us to know. Even S&F's web site has almost no real information - just a bunch of marketing blurbs. If Alexander had not told me - in the other thread - I'd have no idea what S&F is using inside their product, what types of springs they are, etc. Their web site is worthless in that respect. It seems to me that the information should at least BE there, somewhere, on a link at the bottom or if you go into a store and ASK for it you should be able to get it. But no, apparently all this info about types of foams, ILD's, gauge of springs, etc. is considered "top secret" by the mattress industry. It's like they don't want us to see the "man behind the curtain"! |
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eagle2 wrote: I have to agree with Jim. I first started out looking at Stearns and Fosters three top of the line "All foam" mattress and box springs. The least expensive was $2800, the middle was $3500, and the top was $4000. These were all three California Kings. They all three had a latex core of 8.75 inches of luxury latex. I later found out that this is synthetic foam, petroleum-based, not genuine organic latex. The principal difference between the three mattresses was in what they call their “comfort level” the least expensive mattress had 1 inch of supersoft flawless foam, whatever that is. The $3500 mattress had three quarter-inch genuine latex, 1” flawless foam, Versare inner panel, whatever that is, then one and ½ inch convoluted genuine latex foam, and finally one and ½ inch supersoft flawless foam. The top-of-the-line $4000 mattress added an additional three-quarter inch genuine latex foam and ½ inch supersoft flawless foam to the $3500 comfort layers The quilted panel on top was pretty much the same consisting of 1.3 ounces flame guard silk/wool blend, 1.5” supersoft convoluted supersoft foam and 1” supersoft flawless foam. All three mattresses had a box spring called ultra steel. The problem with all three of these mattresses is trying to find out what you’re actually buying. The illustration that went along with these three mattresses was basically all the same. Until someone was willing to spend from $2800-$4000 and take a surgical knife to them, you would never know for sure what you were actually purchasing. A person I know, who used to sell for this mattress chain, told me that there regional supervisor made the comment that “They could hide a bicycle in one of their mattresses, and the average customer would never know the difference.” I can see how this could be true. If you took the handlebars, wheels, and the pedals off of a bicycle it could very easily be stuffed in the middle of all this super soft foam, it might just add some additional stiffening to their mattress. But the point I want to make here is this. Think what kind of arrogance this shows toward their customers! Forever and a day the mattress companies have realized that the average consumer has very little knowledge about the mattress they sleep on. They go into the showroom lay down on the mattress and if it feels comfortable, the cover is attractive, the price seems reasonable, and the salesperson is pleasant and seems knowledgeable and informed, more than likely they will buy it. End of story. Good Evening Eagle, First, regarding the Stearns you mentioned, you don't want all organic latex. You wouldn't enjoy it, it'd be hot and wouldn't last long. What you're looking for is a blend. The Stearns is neither 100% synthetic nor 100% organic. Like most reputable companies, it's a blend. The exact blend and process is somewhat of a corporate secret. It's held that way to avoid imitations. As Stearns is a division of Sealy they are the only major manufacturer you can buy whose latex is made by themselves. This is neither an upside nor a downside just a fact. Regarding what the mattress has in it and disclosure, I agree with you. You should know if you want to. 98% of people out there don't want to. The second you start spouting terms like ILD and even something as simple as spring gauge your average consumer tunes out. For those that do want to know you have to find the right salesperson. And by "right salesperson" I am not implying that any salesperson that can't answer your question is an idiot. You have to understand that not all companies provide expensive training and in depth details on their beds. Especially if you're shopping at a small local distrubuter. Pretend you're Sealy. You're in the midst of a recession (depression?) your sales are plummeting and you have to cut somewhere. Cutting the quality of the beds is cutting your hand off so you try to avoid that. You can't COMPLETELY cut off training because that would negatively impact your sales...but are you going to spend a thousand dollars to pay for your rep to visit Joe's Bed Shack out on 52nd? No. You're going to concentrate on the Big Boys. Shop there. You'll probably find someone who knows what they're talking about. Oh and try to be polite about asking. Especially if you're looking at something cheap. Chances are the salesguy doesn't get paid much, if anything, to sell you that $400 queen set and you just sucked up one of his ups for the day. He's got a wife, kids, and a mortgage too. If he's good at his job he'll still help you to the best of his ability but it pays to be reasonablely nice about it. A lack of minute details is not unique to the mattress industry. How many people out there do you think could even tell you the basic principle regarding how their plasma TV works much less name one single tiny component of it? All they know is they hit the POWER button and on comes the final season of LOST. If you want to know more than that you have to dig...sometimes a lot. The same is true for mattresses. The info is out there. |
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Alex said: "If you want to know more than that you have to dig...sometimes a lot. The same is true for mattresses. The info is out there." I am sure it is, just not on the corp. web sites. In fact I have learned more from you about Sealy and S&F than anywhere else. And I have been in the hunt for several weeks now, night and day! I feel you must work for them or else you are in the mattress business some way. I seem to hear "vestested interest" speaking. Nothing wrong with this. But at the same time it does tend to shape your point of view.....yes? You also said: "First, regarding the Stearns you mentioned, you don't want all organic latex. You wouldn't enjoy it, it'd be hot and wouldn't last long." Alex this fly's in the face of everything I have read in my several week, night and day quest. Organic latex is quite expensive (compared to most synthetics) and i feel this is one of the main reasons the big manufactures do not use it. Secondly 100% natural organic latex is known to last 20 to 30 years. As far as it being hot, I have not heard this. I've heard that memory foam sleeps hot, but then it is a petroleum based products. It is quite obvious that you know a lot about the mattress business. But what do you know about the independence such as Flowbeds, Savvy Rest, and Sleep EZ. They are selling organic hundred percent natural latex. And almost all of their prices are less than the Stearns and Foster synthetic latex mattresses that I priced. This message was modified Sep 7, 2009 by eagle2
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Alexander wrote: Pretend you're Sealy. You're in the midst of a recession (depression?) your sales are plummeting and you have to cut somewhere. Cutting the quality of the beds is cutting your hand off so you try to avoid that.
Alexander, there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this Forum, but I smell an industry apologist. You keep dodging the question every time someone asks. If you have an industry affiliation you need to disclose it now. |
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Cloud and Eagle, No, I do not currently work for the mattress industry. I'm recently retired after thirty-five years of running my own shop. After doing it for so long I can't help but still follow the industry and still have the vendor contacts I made over that time. Retirement is considerably more boring than I'd anticipated. Cloud, I can only talk from my personal experience and sales over thirty-five years. It's true some people are dissatisfied with their mattress. Picking one is difficult. Often people do it incorrectly and this is a large contribution to their dissatisfaction. The vast majority of consumers, however, enjoy their sleep product for the amount of time they're supposed to. In a good quality spring mattress this is between 8-10 years. 6-8 is you and your partner are considered very heavy. It's all about buying the right mattress for who you are and what you need. For example, a couple of young side sleepers with a combined weight under 300lbs who enjoy a soft, featherbed feel that envelops you would probably enjoy a good World Class Simmons pillowtop. By contrast a hefty stomach sleeper who sleeps exceptionally hot would not only rip through the bed in a short amount of time but would be miserable in the process. Buying a mattress is more like buying a pair of shoes than, say, a television. Just because the shoes don't fit you means the shoes are inferior or junk. There's somene out there they fit. The trick is finding out what DOES fit you. I'm under the impression that's what this site is for. -Alex |
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Welcome to retirement land Alex. Believe me, you will get use to it. It isn't so bad after you reach your 70+ years. it even becomes rather nice. Your response to cloud9 and myself was courteous and friendly, even informative. However you must realize that we folks here, on this forum, are in many cases the victims of greed from the manufacturing sector, and ignorance from "under trained sales people", and many other negative human emotions from those who care a lot more about making money than they do about taking care of there customers. You sound like one of those small business people who did care about their customers, and I am going to assume, took good care of them. You then would be, the kind of individual that the poor misguided folks on this website have been looking for. And your presence here, if that is the case, is most welcome indeed. But, board members like Jimsocial, who are willing to cut their mattress to pieces (and take pictures) in order to find out what they purchased and do their best to repair same, are a godsend because we get to actually see what is inside these mattresses. If you have pictures of the better quality mattresses showing their innards and can explain them to us, I believe there are many on this board who would be most thankful. If on the other hand, said pictures were to show rather expensive mattresses with not very expensive synthetic foam, and some of your vendor friends were to read this website (doubtful) you might lose some vendor friends. In any event, thank you for your informed replies. They are most welcome. . |
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Alexander wrote: Cloud and Eagle, No, I do not currently work for the mattress industry. I'm recently retired after thirty-five years of running my own shop. After doing it for so long I can't help but still follow the industry and still have the vendor contacts I made over that time. Retirement is considerably more boring than I'd anticipated. Cloud, I can only talk from my personal experience and sales over thirty-five years. It's true some people are dissatisfied with their mattress. Picking one is difficult. Often people do it incorrectly and this is a large contribution to their dissatisfaction. The vast majority of consumers, however, enjoy their sleep product for the amount of time they're supposed to. In a good quality spring mattress this is between 8-10 years. 6-8 is you and your partner are considered very heavy. It's all about buying the right mattress for who you are and what you need. For example, a couple of young side sleepers with a combined weight under 300lbs who enjoy a soft, featherbed feel that envelops you would probably enjoy a good World Class Simmons pillowtop. By contrast a hefty stomach sleeper who sleeps exceptionally hot would not only rip through the bed in a short amount of time but would be miserable in the process. Buying a mattress is more like buying a pair of shoes than, say, a television. Just because the shoes don't fit you means the shoes are inferior or junk. There's somene out there they fit. The trick is finding out what DOES fit you. I'm under the impression that's what this site is for. -Alex Alex, as a fellow forum member, welcome to the board, and thank you for disclosing your industry background. We have had industry people here on the board before and as long as they aren't hawking their own products all the time it is nice to have someone here who is knowledgeable about mattresses. You've already taught us a lot about Sealy and Stearns and Foster and SImmons and for that I praise you. I hope all of us will treat each other with respect even when we disagree and we are bound to disagree. Many of us here have been screwed in one way or another by the mattress industry or at least found it lacking in one way or another. So no doubt there will be those who will disagree with your more pro-mattress industry point of view. But I for one welcome you and applaud you for your willingness to "walk into the lion's den" so to speak! That said, maybe you can learn something from us too, and maybe you can pass on our opinions as consumers to some of your industry friends. I think there are some of us here who are pretty knowledgeable about what makes a good mattress and what doesn't, what works and what doesn't. I think that perhaps you have a much different perspective on the subject of mattresses, NOT ONLY because you sold them, but because you sold them WELL. In other words, you know what works for different people, you yourself say you have no problem with disclosing what is inside the mattress - and you either KNOW or would find out for the customer. But, you see, many of your fellow mattress sales people are completely the opposite of how it appears you were as a mattress salesman. I would say the vast majority of mattress salesmen I have encountered in the past 8 years or so have been: a) uninformed b) poor salesmen/women c) no interest in learning So when someone walks into a store and cannot get answers about what it is really made of, cannot compare one mattress to another (because the one at the store across town has the same mattress but it has a different name), or encounters idiot or uncaring sales persons, then, well, it tends to turn us off the mattress industry and off of mattress salespeople. When the web sites and ads and website info at stores on the web all give NO info about the kinds of foams used or the gauge or number of the springs, it DOES tend to seem that there is a lot of obfuscation going on in the industry. Combine that with the above issue of mattresses with different names, and with being stonewalled and sent on wild goose chases about what is inside the mattress by the Corporate Customer Relations 800# answerers... well, it all tends to give one a very negative opinion of the mattress industry. Then, when someone you know or you, yourself, spend, say $1000 for a mattress and have it hurt their/your back within a week, okay, you see what I am saying, right? You can see why "mattress salesperson" has a bad connotation, much like "used car salesman". And I do not mean to insult you by saying that, only to tell it like it is. Your description of your bed, and what is inside it made me want to try it! Your description of what is inside the S&F's and Sealys made me realize that the higher end models have at least some advantages over the lower end ones. I am still skeptical about some of the non-latex foams that are in those, but hey, at least it sounds like they're trying to make good spring systems! I wish I had run into someone like you when I was looking at mattresses when I first bought my Sealys back in 2004 or so. I'd have spent a little more and bought something better had I known. I understand what you are saying about how "most" customers do not want to hear about what is inside their mattress. I am sure that is true. They just want to know that it's made with quality and that it will provide them with comfortable sleep. But still, the salesman SHOULD be ready to field questions about what is inside and the companies should be ready to provide that info - in fact the salesmen should not have to ask for it, it should be in their desk or in a file they can readily access. Back to your computer analogy: Can you imagine walking into CompUSA and asking, "What kind of RAM does it have and who makes the sound card?" and being told, "No, I can't tell you that!" Or, "Gee, I don't know... Maybe I can call the 800# and find out. But the guy who would know is on vacation and won't be back til next week..." Well, that is exactly what I encountered when I went to buy my Englander and that is not one saleperson but 4, at 3 different stores, oh, and 2 phone calls to web stores and 2 calls to Englander manufacturers and the England corporate web site. I would be willing to bet that I'd have had about the same experience with Sealy, Spring Air, Serta, and Simmons. So, there are many areas in which I think many of us have legitimate complaints about the mattress industry and mattress sales people. That said, I can tell that you know how to direct a person to the right bed for them and are very knowledgeable so I am not indicting you, personally, here. Anyway, I hope all will welcome your input here and I hope we can all be civil in our debates or disagreements. |
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Jim I agree with your post completely. Alex however does seem like the kind of knowledgeable and involved salesperson we would all like to run into when we went to one of the major manufacturers stores. Unfortunately, as you have indicated, far too often this is not the case. My assumption is that Alex either had a mattress store of his own, and quite possibly several of them, and therefore had an entirely different perspective on the industry than the kind of salespeople we run into. Our type of sales person are there to make a living by a commission. He did say that he had 35 years experience. Most of the salespeople we run into are lucky to have 35 months experience, and that, as I have already mentioned, simply coming to work and trying to make sales so they can make enough commission to pay their bills. A very different perspective indeed. |