I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
I know I could do a search. I know I've done so before. Right now I am just soooo not in the mood to go back and look for and read latex info.  I want to buy 1" or 2" of Dunlop latex (because I've slept on Talalay and never Dunlop; want to try the Dunlop). Can someone remind me who has it cheapest? I know I investigated this 4-5 months ago but I have completely forgotten. I took all memory foam out of my mattress last night and slept better than I have in weeks. Still woke up with a sore back, but much better. The only other time I tried it without the memory foam was when I used 2 x 1" of my soft latex and I think that was too much soft foam for me. Now I'm back to 1" of soft latex without the memory foam and it's better, but I do guess that my HR foam has crapped out, so time to replace it with latex. What ILD do you recommend for my bottom layer(s) over my springs? When my bed was working for me, I only had 1" of HR foam over the springs so I am guessing that should do it with the latex as well. I think the ILD I used was about 32, so with Dunlop I might want to go with 28? or would that be too soft? (as I recall, Dunlop is naturally firmer than Talalay so you use a lower ILD, no?) Also, I'm not sure - maybe I can find this in my receipt somewhere - the HR foam might have been as high as 36ILD. I had 3 ILD's one firm, one medium and one very firm, and I used the medium sometimes and the firm sometimes, but don't recall the exact ILD's. This message was modified Jan 10, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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I have posted on this before. There is a difference between ILD and density. ILD is a measure of surface tension. Density is a measure of how much material is actually in the latex. ILD is measured by taking several readings at 25% of the depth of the piece of latex being tested. Density is measured by taking a reading at 65% of the material being tested, and dividing that by the 25% reading. It is my understanding that Dunlop is a denser material than Talalay. This is why it feels so different. I have been told by those who claim to know such things, that you need to have a piece of Talalay that is at least one ILD rating higher than the Dunlop to have an equivalent support factor in the piece of latex. Never having slept on Dunlop all I can do is relate the information I have. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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sandman wrote: Sleepez seems to have the best selection in 1 -1.5" dunlop that I have seen. Maybe if you call they will cut you some slack on the shipping cost. You have to look on the mattress components section of their website: http://www.sleepez.com/mattresscomponents.htm Sandman, you're right, they do seem to have the best selection on the net. Weird. They didn't even come up in the searches I did. Actually, their prices seem to be cheap enough to warrant the $49 shipping, but I still hate to pay that much for shipping. I'll give them a call and explain that 1" of latex should not cost as much to ship as 3" of latex! (and that if I like it, I'll probably buy more... my wife will probably want one soon enough, too, especially if it works for me). By the way, what is the deal with the ad on the left of their page that says Free Shipping within the U.S.? but then it says across the page that shipping is $49? Maybe I can get them on that, too... misleading advertising... It seems to me that 30-32ILD Dunlop would probably make a good 1" bottom layer under my 1" of softer latex, no? (over my springs). I think if you get too much foam, you lose the advantage of the springs... or so it seems...? Anyone think I should go with 38-40 ILD in the Dunlop? I'm just guessing that would be like slab of hard rubber! ;-D This message was modified Jan 11, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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I think the free shipping is only if you buy a whole mattress. Hopefully they will give you a break on 1". When I talked to them once, I got the impression that they did not stock all of the different thicknesses, so they may have to special order for you. Not sure how long that would take. I guess you will have to call to asses the total situation. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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eagle2 wrote: I have posted on this before. There is a difference between ILD and density. ILD is a measure of surface tension. Density is a measure of how much material is actually in the latex. ILD is measured by taking several readings at 25% of the depth of the piece of latex being tested. Density is measured by taking a reading at 65% of the material being tested, and dividing that by the 25% reading. It is my understanding that Dunlop is a denser material than Talalay. This is why it feels so different. I have been told by those who claim to know such things, that you need to have a piece of Talalay that is at least one ILD rating higher than the Dunlop to have an equivalent support factor in the piece of latex. Never having slept on Dunlop all I can do is relate the information I have. Density is simply a measure of lbs per cubic foot, which is very difficult to measure with latex because of the holes in the product, it is a complex 3D shape in comparison to say a block of memory foam. Realistically, I don't know how accurate what you have been told in the past is with regards to Talalay needing to be one ILD point higher than Dunlop to have a roughly equal firmness rating.....could be true, however an ILD difference of 1 is something that a human being simply could not feel in a blind comfort test, and again not every single piece of foam will actually have its ILD rating tested, so a 1 or 2 point variation is somewhat normal. if you are buying a 22 ILD piece of latex it could be as low as 20 or as high as 24 ILD. There are honestly way too many variables involved with latex to say 100% of the time that Dunlop is denser than Talalay, generally yes, but as with most things there are exceptions to the rule. There are also different sub species to the rubber tree that can produce different qualities of latex, some seeds produce a more elastic rubber which for the same density rating as other latex would read higher on the ILD scale because it is more resilient. So this way of measuring density would seem inaccurate because you cannot use the ILD rating as a factor in measuring density. Anyway I am getting way off topic, I will end my rant lol. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Poor Jim, this mattress tweaking is so tiresome(pun intended!). Sometimes I have a hard time just remembering that a sore mid-lower back is from too soft foam(memory foam is an especially soft foam no matter what), hip and shoulder aches come from too firm foam, and neck ache comes from pillow issues. Once we get to where we want to be, our brains let go of most of this info and we just want to stop futzing with the whole thing, LOL!!! I think you are on the exact right track. HR foam can give up, latex is probably the best bet. I have not gotten any latex for my bed yet...still doing well with the bed as it came plus a polyfill topper. Just try not to overthink it...simpler can be better... Kait |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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sandman wrote: I think the free shipping is only if you buy a whole mattress. Hopefully they will give you a break on 1". When I talked to them once, I got the impression that they did not stock all of the different thicknesses, so they may have to special order for you. Not sure how long that would take. I guess you will have to call to asses the total situation. Thank you. I did find a 1" Talalay place with free shipping, so I may have to go with Talalay; or I may buy 1" of each. http://www.sleeplikeabear.com/talatech_toppers Anyone know how to make links work as live clickable links, here? I'm going to start another thread to ask for opinions as to ILD's I should buy if I buy one of each. This message was modified Jan 11, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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budgy wrote: Density is simply a measure of lbs per cubic foot, which is very difficult to measure with latex because of the holes in the product, it is a complex 3D shape in comparison to say a block of memory foam. Realistically, I don't know how accurate what you have been told in the past is with regards to Talalay needing to be one ILD point higher than Dunlop to have a roughly equal firmness rating.....could be true, however an ILD difference of 1 is something that a human being simply could not feel in a blind comfort test, and again not every single piece of foam will actually have its ILD rating tested, so a 1 or 2 point variation is somewhat normal. if you are buying a 22 ILD piece of latex it could be as low as 20 or as high as 24 ILD. There are honestly way too many variables involved with latex to say 100% of the time that Dunlop is denser than Talalay, generally yes, but as with most things there are exceptions to the rule. There are also different sub species to the rubber tree that can produce different qualities of latex, some seeds produce a more elastic rubber which for the same density rating as other latex would read higher on the ILD scale because it is more resilient. So this way of measuring density would seem inaccurate because you cannot use the ILD rating as a factor in measuring density. Anyway I am getting way off topic, I will end my rant lol. budgy, you sound very knowledgeable about latex. Did you or do you work in the business? Thanks for that info re Dunlop vs. Talalay. This message was modified Jan 11, 2010 by jimsocal
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Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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Kait wrote: Poor Jim, this mattress tweaking is so tiresome(pun intended!). Sometimes I have a hard time just remembering that a sore mid-lower back is from too soft foam(memory foam is an especially soft foam no matter what), hip and shoulder aches come from too firm foam, and neck ache comes from pillow issues. Once we get to where we want to be, our brains let go of most of this info and we just want to stop futzing with the whole thing, LOL!!! I think you are on the exact right track. HR foam can give up, latex is probably the best bet. I have not gotten any latex for my bed yet...still doing well with the bed as it came plus a polyfill topper. Just try not to overthink it...simpler can be better... Kait Kait, thanks for reminding me not to overthink it. I have come to a working theory for now, which is that the HR foam has died. I am now looking for 1" of Talalay and/or 1" of Dunlop to replace it. I'm going to ask in another thread - so everyone will see it; sometimes after replying once to a thread people quit reading it, I think - what ILD's I should buy for each. As to "just wanting to stop futzing with the whole thing", I'm way past that! I hate it, and as I said, I thought I was past having to do it, but instead here I am again, which is... disheartening... discouraging.But life goes on. And when your mattress starts killing your back, you have no choice but to act! So while my wife and I both hate futzing with our mattresses (mostly mine, but occasionally her's, too), we accept it as part of life, being that we both have bad backs which are very sensitive to slight changes. Since my wife's mattress also recently started bothering her, I'm guessing the HR foam used in both is the culprit. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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jimsocal wrote: budgy, you sound very knowledgeable about latex. Did you or do you work in the business? Thanks for that info re Dunlop vs. Talalay. yeah, my family runs a small independent store in Canada. we specialize in latex products, thing is we are one of maybe 2 or 3 stores in North America I have been able to find that carry latex manufactured by most major manufacturers; latex international, dunlopillo (when they were still around), and latex green, as well as one smaller entity that actually owns their own latex plantation in malaysia. its my job to sift through the BS that some manufacturers use to describe their product and learn what is truly accurate. Even though we specialize in latex we seldomly even talk about the processes used (dunlop or talalay) as it is surprisingly unimportant in the greater scheme of things. most talk about one process being better than another tends to stem from what product that company is selling rather than empirical evidence and un-biased analysis. |
Re: I am just plain lazy today ;-D - I need some info from latex buyers/users
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budgy wrote: yeah, my family runs a small independent store in Canada. we specialize in latex products, thing is we are one of maybe 2 or 3 stores in North America I have been able to find that carry latex manufactured by most major manufacturers; latex international, dunlopillo (when they were still around), and latex green, as well as one smaller entity that actually owns their own latex plantation in malaysia. its my job to sift through the BS that some manufacturers use to describe their product and learn what is truly accurate. Even though we specialize in latex we seldomly even talk about the processes used (dunlop or talalay) as it is surprisingly unimportant in the greater scheme of things. most talk about one process being better than another tends to stem from what product that company is selling rather than empirical evidence and un-biased analysis. Excellent info! Thanks. So, if I can ask to help clarify: For example, I once laid on some Dunlop latex and it seemed much more "dense" and others here in the past have noted that Dunlop latex tends to be denser, or feel denser, less spring-y, more of a "dead" feel as opposed to a bouncy feel. I know many including myself have had this impression and talked about it. Are you saying this is just coincidence, that it depends on the maker, or batch, or something like that? Or is our description "generally true" but not always true? Or am I just plain wrong. (Nothing wrong with that, I'm willing to admit I might be wrong because I have very little experience with Dunlop latex.) |