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I have searched the forums without much luck, so I am posting my question here. About a year ago we purchased a split king from SleepEZ. My side has a Talalay soft layer and Dunlop medium and firm layers. When I sleep on the mattress my mid to upper back gets so painful that it wakes me in the night and it tends to be painful the entire next day. I have tried all possible combinations and permutations of the layers with little relief. (I have the same problem on my wifes side of the bed) I have tried thick pillows, soft pillows, two pillows etc. I have also tried different toppers I do tend to end up on my side, occasionally on my stomach... I sleep fine on the guest room traditional mattress or in a recliner. We are going to have to get rid of the bed if we cannot come up with a solution... Any thoughts? Thanks jms This message was modified Feb 26, 2010 by jms969
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I agree go firmer. I also agree about losing weight, can I lose this weight still eating cheesecake, cookies, chips, and beer?    My goal is to lose weight too, I won't say how much or when, but it is my goal. I just removed my spongey 1 1/2" 24ILD and my 20ILD 1 " top layer. Now I have 3" of probably medium soft latex. Still I know I can not sleep on my side, but at least I can sleep on my back and not be on a sponge. My latex is over springs. I would really firm your mattress up more, I am a slower learner and am now doing this.  This message was modified Feb 27, 2010 by Leo3
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We have made the decision to get rid of this mattress, it is just not going to work for us. We are in south central wisconsin and would like to find a new home for it.
Details are below: Sleep EZ 10000 Split King Firm, Medium, & Soft on each side Sleep Ez platform
Ping me back if you have interest in the mattress and platform. Cost $2,185 new will sell for $500... This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by jms969
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It's probably too late for this but I don't think anyone has asked you about the bed (or beds) where you don't have any problems. Can you describe it (firm, soft, pillowtop, type of springs, etc) or even better give the name of it and then maybe someone will know how it's made and be able to give some suggestions based on that. How about the hotel beds that don't have any problems for you. Are they typically softer, firmer, and do you have any sense of what is different about them from the layering that is causing you problems? Is the bed that doesn't give you any problems comfortable to you or is it just that you don't have a sore back when you sleep on it? After so long it may just be easier to dump it but it seemed to me that finding out about the beds that have no problems for you and comparing them to what you have may give some insight into why this is happening. It might also help to know what your general weight distribution was. Are you an inverted triangle (weight in upper body), a regular triangle (weight in lower body), a rectangle (weight evenly proportioned), or something else? If nothing else it would be educational if it could be "fixed" and we all might learn something if you were willing to be a "guinea pig" Phoenix This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: It's probably too late for this but I don't think anyone has asked you about the bed (or beds) where you don't have any problems. Can you describe it (firm, soft, pillowtop etc) or even better give the name of it and then maybe someone will know how it's made and be able to give some suggestions based on that. How about the hotel beds that don't have any problems for you. Are they typically softer, firmer, and do you have any sense of what is different about them from the layering that is causing you problems? Is the bed that doesn't give you any problems comfortable to you or is it just that you don't have a sore back when you sleep on it? After so long it may just be easier to dump it but it seemed to me that finding out about the beds that have no problems for you and comparing them to what you have may give some insight into why this is happening. Phoenix The interesting part is no problems with firm beds, soft beds, urethane foam beds, etc. Not sure what is going on with the latex but it hurts like crazy.
So the mattress and platform are now on craigslist for sale. If it does not sell then it is off to the dump, kind of crazy to throw away a $2200 mattress but neither Goodwill nor St. Vincent DePaul wants it... :(
To further answer your questions Hilton's beds are the most comfortable I am rested with no pain, I would characterize the mattress as medium to firm with a pillowtop. This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by jms969
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Here's the bed that hilton sells http://www.hiltontohome.com/productGroup.aspx?category1=Bedding&category1Name=Bedding&categoryLevel=0&itemID=HIL-124 It's posturized which is the spring equivalent of latex zoning with a firmer section under your hips. This would raise your hips relative to your shoulders/upper back. If your lower body sinks in too much and your upper body not enough, you end up with a kind of "hunched" position which can cause upper back issues. This would also depend to a degree on your weight distribution (added a question in my previous post about triangles, rectangles etc). A higher pillow would worsen this. My guess is that regardless of the top layer, firm, plush or pillowtop as in the hilton, you need more underlying firmness in your lower body relative to your upper body or more softness in your upper body relative to your lower body. Somehow the layers you have are not allowing your upper body to sink in enough or your lower body too much. You said you tended to end up on your side (perhaps the body is trying to get the shoulders to sink in more by side sleeping where the shoulder pressure point is more "pointed" than the back) and occasionaly your stomach (trying to compensate for a "hunch" with "hyperextension" the other way. Do you tend to start on your back or prefer back sleeping or do you end up on your side or stomach on other beds just as much? Have you tried sleeping on the firm dunlop layer on top of the medium dunlop layer without the Talalay at all? It may be the culprit in that even soft latex could tend to offer more support to your upper back than a typical super soft plush layer or pillowtop which in turn is keeping your upper body too high when you are on your back (when you are on your back the weight of your upper body is distributed over a wider area and even the softer top layer in Talalay would hold your upper body up more relative to your lower body which would have a more concentrated weight and sink in more deeply). Typical plush layers in other non latex beds would not be as supportive and so you would not have this problem if this was the case. While it might not be too comfortable, it would be interesting to see if this levelled you out enough to not cause the back problem (even if it did cause a pressure problem). You could also start with the medium over the firm if you wanted to start with something a little softer for the sake of getting some sleep. Either would be a good place to begin (without the Talalay) and if either way your back pain didn't happen, then it would just be a matter of finding a top layer that kept you "level" and was comfortable enough for daily sleeping. This could be softer (to more closely mimic a typical plush layer so your upper back would sink more deeply) or firmer (so your lower body would not sink in as deeply). It would also tell you if zoning in the lower layers might help you. Dunlop also has a slightly firmer side and a less firm side so you could try them with the firmer sides up as well. These kind of issues are why the guy at at trulyadjustable makes his beds with "double zoning" by cutting the upper half of a layer at an "appropriate place" depending on torso measurement and replacing it with something softer to let the shoulders sink in more. He may be on to something with this. At least sleeping without the Talalay at all would be a place to start with what you have. Again, you may not want to even go here but I really do think it would be interesting. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 10, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Here's the bed that hilton sells http://www.hiltontohome.com/productGroup.aspx?category1=Bedding&category1Name=Bedding&categoryLevel=0&itemID=HIL-124 It's posturized which is the spring equivalent of latex zoning with a firmer section under your hips. This would raise your hips relative to your shoulders/upper back. If your lower body sinks in too much and your upper body not enough, you end up with a kind of "hunched" position which can cause upper back issues. This would also depend to a degree on your weight distribution (added a question in my previous post about triangles, rectangles etc). A higher pillow would worsen this. My guess is that regardless of the top layer, firm, plush or pillowtop as in the hilton, you need more underlying firmness in your lower body relative to your upper body or more softness in your upper body relative to your lower body. Somehow the layers you have are not allowing your upper body to sink in enough or your lower body too much. You said you tended to end up on your side (perhaps the body is trying to get the shoulders to sink in more by side sleeping where the shoulder pressure point is more "pointed" than the back) and occasionaly your stomach (trying to compensate for a "hunch" with "hyperextension" the other way. Do you tend to start on your back or prefer back sleeping or do you end up on your side or stomach on other beds just as much? Have you tried sleeping on the firm dunlop layer on top of the medium dunlop layer without the Talalay at all? It may be the culprit in that even soft latex could tend to offer more support to your upper back than a typical super soft plush layer or pillowtop which in turn is keeping your upper body too high when you are on your back (when you are on your back the weight of your upper body is distributed over a wider area and even the softer top layer in Talalay would hold your upper body up more relative to your lower body which would have a more concentrated weight and sink in more deeply). Typical plush layers in other non latex beds would not be as supportive and so you would not have this problem if this was the case. While it might not be too comfortable, it would be interesting to see if this levelled you out enough to not cause the back problem (even if it did cause a pressure problem). You could also start with the medium over the firm if you wanted to start with something a little softer for the sake of getting some sleep. Either would be a good place to begin (without the Talalay) and if either way your back pain didn't happen, then it would just be a matter of finding a top layer that kept you "level" and was comfortable enough for daily sleeping. This could be softer (to more closely mimic a typical plush layer so your upper back would sink more deeply) or firmer (so your lower body would not sink in as deeply). It would also tell you if zoning in the lower layers might help you. Dunlop also has a slightly firmer side and a less firm side so you could try them with the firmer sides up as well. These kind of issues are why the guy at at trulyadjustable makes his beds with "double zoning" by cutting the upper half of a layer at an "appropriate place" depending on torso measurement and replacing it with something softer to let the shoulders sink in more. He may be on to something with this. At least sleeping without the Talalay at all would be a place to start with what you have. Again, you may not want to even go here but I really do think it would be interesting. Phoenix firm, medium, medium firm, firm, medium firm, soft, sort (this is the most comfortable) etc...
I just spent a week on vacation on an absolutely junk mattress, while it was not the most comfortable I still had no back pain. So I have the latex mattress listed on Craigslist and will start the search for a new mattress tomorrow :)
Thanks for your considerable efforts to help sort this out but honestly it should not be this hard to get a reasonably comfortable mattress... This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by jms969
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Did you try the 2 layers without the talalay? I only saw the 3 layer combos that you tried. Did you mean your most comfortable layer was a firm on top of 2 soft or 2 soft on top of firm? Either way if comfortable means less back pain it points to a solution. It also seems to fit why it only happens with latex. It would sure be a shame to either throw away or take a huge loss on such a beautiful mattress after only 2 years or so when another week might solve the problem. In any case que sera sera lol Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Did you try the 2 layers without the talalay? I only saw the 3 layer combos that you tried. Did you mean your most comfortable layer was a firm on top of 2 soft or 2 soft on top of firm? Either way if comfortable means less back pain it points to a solution. It also seems to fit why it only happens with latex. It would sure be a shame to either throw away or take a huge loss on such a beautiful mattress after only 2 years or so when another week might solve the problem. In any case que sera sera lol Phoenix The most comfortable is firm on bottom, with two soft talalay layers. It is usually good for two nights then the pain returns with a vengence... Medium and soft, soft are to soft. Yeah I am not particularly happy about it either, but don't really have a choice, gotta stop sleeping on the couch... |
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OK ... Applying logic here (and I know when it comes to mattresses, logic doesn't always work lol) Problem seems to be that the lower body is sinking in too deep relative to the upper body and causing upper back pain. Fits the symptoms. Only happens on your latex mattress and not on a variety of both harder and softer other mattresses. Probable cause is that even soft latex is more supportive than regular pillowtops and doesn't let your upper body sink in enough. Fits the symptoms. Soft, Soft, Firm seems to somewhat help temporarily. Probable cause is that your upper body gets to sink in a little deeper relative to lower body (lower body would still sink on a firmer middle layer while the upper body wouldn't). Fits the symptoms. Still to test: Firmest possible combination of firm over medium with no soft layer (not even on the bottom). While this would not let the upper body sink much, the lower body would also not sink as much and overall alignment may also be better (perhaps even better than soft soft firm). May also be OK for a couple of days or maybe longer if alignment is better than soft soft firm, even though it might not be so comfortable without a soft upper layer. If this is the case (soft over soft over firm ... and ... firm over medium both help at least to some degree) we have likely nailed the problem. If we've nailed the problem (still to be determined), then coming to a solution is way easier. Knowing your body weight distribution (up or down triangle or rectangle or some variation) would also help in this case. I am guessing that given your comments earlier in this thread, that you may carry a little extra weight in your lower body (triangle point up) but that it is not anything dramatic. Even if you do end up dumping this mattress, the information that comes from the experiment could help you in finding a "perfect" replacement (as opposed to just ok or "works for a while" replacement) for your body type. Phoenix |
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Sounds like what you really need is some zoning. Perhaps Flobeds would sell you half of a vzone layer that has been returned. This way you can customize what is under your hips (and other areas) vs. what is under the shoulders. Softer under shoulders, firmer under hips (or whatever works!). Or, possibly you could cut out a part of one of the firmer pieces under the shoulder areas and put in a softer piece of latex (or other foam). Maybe buy a 1" soft twin piece and cut it up to the right sizes to fit The vzone has a soft piece from about 13" from the top of the bed down to about 23". So, 1 soft 10" x half width of mattress x depth of latex layer (3"?) would do. You could probalby have the soft layer all the way from the top down 23", because I don't think what is under the head matters that much I actually have done this, in my bottom 32ILD layer. Right now I have so much foam over it tha it may not make much difference, but near the top it could make a significant difference. |