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I have searched the forums without much luck, so I am posting my question here. About a year ago we purchased a split king from SleepEZ. My side has a Talalay soft layer and Dunlop medium and firm layers. When I sleep on the mattress my mid to upper back gets so painful that it wakes me in the night and it tends to be painful the entire next day. I have tried all possible combinations and permutations of the layers with little relief. (I have the same problem on my wifes side of the bed) I have tried thick pillows, soft pillows, two pillows etc. I have also tried different toppers I do tend to end up on my side, occasionally on my stomach... I sleep fine on the guest room traditional mattress or in a recliner. We are going to have to get rid of the bed if we cannot come up with a solution... Any thoughts? Thanks jms This message was modified Feb 26, 2010 by jms969
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jms, i've got the same problem. latex causing back pain. i think mine is probably too soft, but dunlop is awfully firm so that may not be your problem. i share your frustration. best of luck! |
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jasmine wrote: jms, i've got the same problem. latex causing back pain. i think mine is probably too soft, but dunlop is awfully firm so that may not be your problem. i share your frustration. best of luck! I have pain with one firm dunlop layer and two soft talalay layers... So I do not think to firm is the issue, I think latex is the issue
But the good news is, it looks like I have sold it on CL, hopefully they pick it up tonight and I am done with it... Expensive experiment :( |
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Glad you sold it, sorry it didn't work out. I have Talalay natural latex over Dunlop. I have no back issues. One thing often ignored is the cover they put on mattresses, Sleepeze included, might be too tight, and no give. Same thing for mattress pads as Sandman is reporting back on in another thread. I have big issues with mattress pads. Look at that on your future mattress. This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Leo3
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"I think latex is the issue" Not so much the material itself but the support it gives in the softer ILD's very well could be. An HR poly foam with the same qualities (ILD and support ratio) would have the same issues. From everything I know and based on the people I've talked to that know a lot more than me, back issues have very little to do with firmness or softness per se ... even though it's a common misperception. It has much more to do with how well the back is aligned when you are sleeping and misalignment ... and back issues ... can happen with any firmness of mattress. The days of "firmer is better" are long over ... thank goodness lol I'm glad you sold your mattress ... and good luck with your next one! Phoenix |
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Phoenix wrote: "I think latex is the issue" Not so much the material itself but the support it gives in the softer ILD's very well could be. An HR poly foam with the same qualities (ILD and support ratio) would have the same issues. From everything I know and based on the people I've talked to that know a lot more than me, back issues have very little to do with firmness or softness per se ... even though it's a common misperception. It has much more to do with how well the back is aligned when you are sleeping and misalignment ... and back issues ... can happen with any firmness of mattress. The days of "firmer is better" are long over ... thank goodness lol I'm glad you sold your mattress ... and good luck with your next one! Phoenix |
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It's actually not the density of foam that determines it's support but it's ILD and support ratio (the ratio of the weights required to compress foam to 25% and 75% of it's height). The ild is how much weight it takes to compress the foam down 25% so if a foam had an ild of 20 and a support ratio of 3 that means it would take 20 lbs to compress a 4" piece of foam down to 3" and it would take 60 lbs to compress it down to 1". For example memory foam has a typical density of 5.3 lbs / sq ft and yet has almost no support (very low support ratio). Some of the HR foams out now have a density of say 2.1 (there's quite a range but 1.8 - 2.5 are typically used as a bottom layer in a mattress) and yet they offer very firm levels of support. Jello is denser than styrofoam but has little support. Some of the newer foams are quite light (not very dense) compared to latex and memory foam and yet have very high support levels. So if you were to take a piece of say energia foam with properties (ild and support ratio) the same as a piece of latex, the back issues would be the same, even if the densities were different. In other words they would feel identical and offer the same level of support. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: It's actually not the density of foam that determines it's support but it's ILD and support factor (the ratio of the weights required to compress foam to 25% and 75% of it's height). The ild is how much weight it takes to compress the foam down 25% so if a foam had an ild of 20 and a support factor of 3 that means it would take 20 lbs to compress a 4" piece of foam down to 3" and it would take 60 lbs to compress it down to 1" For example memory foam has a typical density of 5.3 lbs / sq ft and yet has almost no support (very low support factor). Some of the HR foams out now have a density of say 2.1 (there's quite a range but 1.8 - 2.5 are typically used as a bottom layer in a mattress) and yet they offer very firm levels of support. Jello is denser than styrofoam but has little support. Some of the newer foams are quite light (not very dense) compared to latex and memory foam and yet have very high support levels. So if you were to take a piece of say energia foam with properties (ild and support ratio) similar to latex, the back issues would be the same, even if the densities were different. Phoenix
When I say density I am not refering to jello or styrofoam, I am speaking in context of latex foam...
Anyway no longer matters, we are rid of the mattress, took a bath on it and learned a very valuable lesson!!! |
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Compressability is exactly what support ratio is and is exactly what I suspected the problem was when I first started posting to this thread. Latex in lower ild's has a higher support ratio than the typical pillow top which as I said earlier fit your symptoms of being able to sleep on both harder surfaces and pillowtops without problems. If we had confirmed this by checking to see if your back issues didn't happen on a very firm latex, then it would have been relatively easy to solve the problem ... either with zoning as sandman mentioned, different thicknesses and ordering of foam, or different foam types. Even a 2 zone solution which would have involved ordering less than half a layer of foam would probably have worked really well. In any case, I'm glad you're half way to solving your back pain issues. Back pain is never fun no matter what the cause. Phoenix This message was modified Oct 11, 2010 by Phoenix
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Phoenix wrote: Compressability is exactly what support ratio is and is exactly what I suspected the problem was when I first started posting to this thread. Latex in lower ild's has a higher support ratio than the typical pillow top which as I said earlier fit your symptoms of being able to sleep on both harder surfaces and pillowtops without problems. If we had confirmed this by checking to see if your back issues didn't happen on a very firm latex, then it would have been relatively easy to solve the problem ... either with zoning as sandman mentioned, different thicknesses and ordering of foam, or different foam types. Even a 2 zone solution which would have involved ordering less than half a layer of foam would probably have worked really well. In any case, I'm glad you're half way to solving your back pain issues. Back pain is never fun no matter what the cause. Phoenix To answer your questions again I tried very firm latex I tried very firm latex with a 3 inch topper I tried very soft latex There are 120 permutation of these 6 slabs of latex in a 3 layer subset. Plus the various permutations of toppers (latex, fiber, memory foam) I had the same back problems with all configurations, there is no "easy" solution to this problem I spend 18 months trying all of the compunations and permutations. I refuse at this point to spend anymore money on a problem with a suboptimal solution (or better yet unsolvable). This message was modified Oct 12, 2010 by jms969
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sandman wrote: Sounds like what you really need is some zoning. Perhaps Flobeds would sell you half of a vzone layer that has been returned. This way you can customize what is under your hips (and other areas) vs. what is under the shoulders. Softer under shoulders, firmer under hips (or whatever works!). Or, possibly you could cut out a part of one of the firmer pieces under the shoulder areas and put in a softer piece of latex (or other foam). Maybe buy a 1" soft twin piece and cut it up to the right sizes to fit The vzone has a soft piece from about 13" from the top of the bed down to about 23". So, 1 soft 10" x half width of mattress x depth of latex layer (3"?) would do. You could probalby have the soft layer all the way from the top down 23", because I don't think what is under the head matters that much I actually have done this, in my bottom 32ILD layer. Right now I have so much foam over it tha it may not make much difference, but near the top it could make a significant difference. |