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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Alexander wrote: Eagle, Perhaps I am mistaken as to the purpose of this forum then. I was under the impression that it was to answer questions regarding mattresses to help people find the best mattress for them. I didn't know that the purpose was to incite revolution within the industry. My apologies, -Alex No need to apologize Alex. But it is revealing to see your take on my last post. For the last 15 years of my working life I was a traveling factory representative for a major manufacturer of industrial containers. We sold to the petrochemical and agrochemical businesses. I traveled all over the midwest calling on the major oil companies and chemical companies. There was never any doubt, in anyone's mind, about what went into our product. It was controlled by the DOT (Department of Transportation) . Everybody knew what a 55 gallon DOT 17 E. 20/18gauge tighthead drum was made out of. And God forbid, if for any reason, my company would produced anything less than stipulated. The point being, both the manufacturer and the customer knew exactly what that stipulation was. When they paid their money they received exactly what they expected. You just seem to be intent on seeing this discussion on this board center around condemnation of the manufactures of mattresses. Yes, we are condemning them, but for a very good reason. They do not want to say exactly what is in their mattresses that we are buying. And the fact that a lot of people do not care for this information is not an excuse to not provide it to those of us who do want to know. You do seem to be very defensive of an industry that can hide almost anything, and everything, inside of a fancy cover. If that is being too harsh on the mattress manufacturing industry, so be it! |
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Alexander wrote: Eagle, Perhaps I am mistaken as to the purpose of this forum then. I was under the impression that it was to answer questions regarding mattresses to help people find the best mattress for them. I didn't know that the purpose was to incite revolution within the industry. My apologies, -Alex In my opinion, what we are doing is suggesting that the way the mattress industry is and has been conducting its business is anti-consumer and seems to almost border on intentional obfuscation of materials used. All you have to do is look at most S company web sites and I am betting (I have not done so yet) that you will find almost NO information on contents of the foams or springs - that is, no REAL information. Sure they'll mention their "revolutionary new spring design" or their "so-and-so special patented foam design" but nothing that anyone can really sink their teeth into and use for comparison shopping (i.e; HR ILD 36, or even Medium high-density foam") You MAY be right (or you may not be) that the majority of people are happy with their mattresses. I'd say that IF that is true, it must be a miracle because between the ignorant salespeople and the anti-disclosure manufacturers, it is very hard to know what one is getting. I do think there are a LOT of people who can "sleep on anything" and so are not very picky. I'd also say there are probably at least 33% of us who do need a better mattress than what most people buy. And THAT is the point. You keep saying that people do not want to know what is in their mattresses. I think that is true right now, mostly because they know it is a real pain or even impossible to find out, and because there has been no education on it. I suppose computers could have been sold the same way: "Well, this one is really FAST!" "But what's in it?" "Gee, I'm not sure... " "Well, can you get me the specs on it?" "Well, I dunno... maybe..." Pretty soon people would just stop asking and instead say, "Well, I want one that's really fast for surfing the net and burning movies". "Okay, you need the Super Duper (trademark) WhammoSurfAndBurn model!" "Oh, okay... if you say so..." And years from now the computer vendors would say, "Gee, no one ever asks, they don't want to know that stuff, they just want what I tell them is best for them!" And believe me, a lot of people DO buy their computers like that, even though Best Buy puts the little card there that tells us most of what we do want to know. But at least the consumer has the OPTION of easily finding out. Look on the web site for a computer at BestBuy - it tells you a TON of info about it; more than MOST people care to know. But then there are educated buyers like you and me who Do want to know... I'm trying to think of any other industry besides furniture that does not disclose the materials its made of or makes it hard to find out - where the materials play such an important part in the quality and utility of the product! Clothes are labeled, computers, food, phones, cars, stereos, tv's...lots of info about them. No, not the steel they're made from, but then that is not a major factor in tv's. But in mattresses the gauge of steel DOES play a big factor, the ILD of foams DO play a major factor! Just because things have been done this way for 50 years or more - or forever - doesn't mean they should continue to be done this way. Any search on the net about mattresses will reveal TONS of unhappy customers. More and more I am running into people I know who say, "Yeah, I just bought a mattress and it is killing my back!" My sister in law is one of these and she asked the store to exchange it or replace it and they "can't". So what is she to do? I bet tons of people are unhappy with their mattress after 6 months or a year but they don't tell the salesman because they KNOW there is no recourse for them. Then they probably just go to a different store next time... Is there any wonder, when they are putting 5" or more of non-supportive PU foam in them, that the foam is breaking down quickly and causing back problems?? It would not take long for mattress buyers to realize the differences between one mattress and another IF the info was POSTED next to the bed! People "don't want to know" only because mattresses have been presented as a "mystery". I just talked to a friend of mine yesterday who did not even know what is inside a mattress. Had no idea. He's not stupid, he's quite bright. He just never thought about it and never asked. The fact is, it is clear that the mattress industry does NOT WANT TO TELL US what is inside, they do not want us asking "those" questions, and my experience has been, they won't even tell you if you call the 800# for customer service and ASK them! Now, later this week, I may test my hypothesis by calling Sealy, Spring Air, etc. and see if they will tell me the info I want re a few of their middle-to-high end mattresses. If I could, I would gather the specs on about 20 middle and high end mattresses here and we'd see how much PU foam is in them. I'd guess that the majority have too much non-supportive foam and are thus, something I would never pay good money for. Getting back to your post above, part of "what is the best mattress" has to do with finding out what is in it, at least for us "picky" customers, those of us with sleep issues or who have already had crappy mattresses full of cheap PU foam and have learned that the crappy PU foam plays a part in the problems we've had. SO, for THAT reason, "what is the best mattress" (this web site, I mean) DOES have to do with changing the industry. Because right now it is VERY hard to get clear info about what types and ILD's of foam are in the mattresses being sold! So maybe the only way to help people buy mattresses that are best for them - especially people who can't find an "Alexander" in their town to help them! - is to start demanding that the mattress companies DISCLOSE THE INFORMATION WE NEED to make a good decision! I am actually going to write my Congressmen about the mattress industry one of these days, soon, and request that it be looked at. This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by jimsocal
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I wanted to just add this url here, so that anyone interested in mattress surgery can also see this info re mattress surgery on my Sealy Fenway: http://www.whatsthebest-mattress.com/forum/dissecting-my-sealy-fenway-mattress-bought-costco-4-years-ago-lousy-soft-foam-inside/1954-1-1.html |
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I was out on errands today that happened to take me by a Bestbuy. Remembering our conversation earlier, I went to the computer department and was promptly greeted by a smiling young man in a blue polo. He asked if he could help me. I replied yes, that I'd like to ask him a few questions about about the eMachine here. He smiled and began to tell me how it was a good machine for light gaming, photo work and web surfing. At the end I asked him if I could ask him a few more questions. I asked him what the average core temp was under a medium graphical load. He stared at me like I'd grown a nose out of my forehead (perhaps he didn't expect an older man to understand anything about these new-fangled computawhatsits?) I asked my question again saying that it was important because I did a lot of home video editing and I had warped the motherboard of my last PC due to ventilation problems with the box. He said he didn't know but would ask his supervisor. He returned with a taller boy who explained to me that they weren't given that information. I asked him if he could tell me where I could find it. He recommended some programs that monitor internal CPU temp and suggested I buy the computer and try them. I accepted this answer and asked him if he could tell me who manufacturered the RAM in the PC. There's a wide...WIDE variation in quality of RAM dependant upon where it's made and by whom. If I'm going to spend a thousand dollars on a computer, I want to know whether I'm buying junk RAM or not. The supervisor said he didn't know. When I asked him if eMachines had a toll free customer support number for questions such as these he gave me a number for tech support but said it was unlikely they would know. Two strikes so far so I attempted go give him an easy one. I asked him if he could tell me of any bloatware found on the PC (bloatware is programs installed on a new computer such as free trials, demos, etc for software you may or may not ever want) He listed three he was aware of but would not reassure me that those three were the only ones installed when I pressed him on it. He wouldn't tell me what was in the PC because he didn't know and didn't know where to get the information. When I asked him why important details like these were not included in the little cards found underneath each computer he said (and this is god's honest truth) "Most customers aren't interested in those sorts of details." Tomorrow I'll conduct an experiment. I'll call three retailers in my area (not my former store) and the Sealy customer service number. I'll ask the following questions: - Can you describe for me the Sealy Posturepedic Coil and how it differs from others? -What's the gauge of the coil? -What kinds of foams are in it? -What kind of ticking do they offer? I'm curious to see how they answer. -Alex This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by Alexander
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This is getting very interesting reading this thread. I do agree about mattresses today being full of crummy foam. I have been through many beds myself that I wasted money on. Furniture is the same way now. A recliner I bought (same brand just several months later) has cheaper foam in it, and cheaper vinyl in it. I can see the foam has indentations already, and it is still new! Any way companies can save money and use cheaper components that is what they seem to be doing now. It is very discouraging to even spend you hard earned money on new items. As for computers, all the salepeople had to do to tell you who makes a component is to look at the floor model and use the software (can't remember exactly where it is on a Windows computer now) the machine came with to see system components. It is there! That is how I could see what brand hard drive I had, or even the wireless card. It is true that websites of the S companies do not list their components in detail, I have tried to find out myself many of time. I will say Sealey Truform (like Tempurpedic) did list the lb. of foam so that is a surprise. But the bed still sucked for me. After several months I was in pain, and I mean really bad pain. I hope your new bed works good for you Jim. I am still trying to get my layers of latex, memory foam to work for me. Thanks Alex for doing research and being open minded about the problems with the mattress industry. There are major problems with them. I have heard countless people saying they just bought a bed and they hated it and wished they had kept the old one! We are not alone. This message was modified Sep 8, 2009 by Leo3
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Alexander wrote: I was out on errands today that happened to take me by a Bestbuy. Remembering our conversation earlier, I went to the computer department and was promptly greeted by a smiling young man in a blue polo. He asked if he could help me. I replied yes, that I'd like to ask him a few questions about about the eMachine here. He smiled and began to tell me how it was a good machine for light gaming, photo work and web surfing. At the end I asked him if I could ask him a few more questions. I asked him what the average core temp was under a medium graphical load. He stared at me like I'd grown a nose out of my forehead (perhaps he didn't expect an older man to understand anything about these new-fangled computawhatsits?) I asked my question again saying that it was important because I did a lot of home video editing and I had warped the motherboard of my last PC due to ventilation problems with the box. He said he didn't know but would ask his supervisor. He returned with a taller boy who explained to me that they weren't given that information. I asked him if he could tell me where I could find it. He recommended some programs that monitor internal CPU temp and suggested I buy the computer and try them. [edited shorter by jimsocal]Alex, I think I said this before, but I want to say it again: I don't think it's a fair comparison. Like I said, computers DO have the basic technical details listed, at least on the medium range models at BB. I have not looked at the cheapest models so maybe they do not. But like a middle of the road $800 machine like an HP or Dell - they do list the Type of Ram (dual layer DDR or whatever), the Chip type and speed, the amount of Ram and the size of the hard drive and type of DVD and OS and usually a few other things. There are enough DETAILS there to make an informed decision, and usually you can find a sales person to get more info OR find it on the web site of BB or the manufacturer. Frankly, I am a "power user" of computers yet I do not know what the average core temperature is or should be. I don't do gaming or editing on mine, so that is why. And a serious gamer or editor would not be buying a low end model computer, they'd be buying a high end model. That's one thing. Also, the info IS available for all but the most obscure details, if you go to the manufacturer or the web site. Not true with mattresses! So I don't think the analogy of asking re core temp of a computer is exactly the same as asking the mattress store about what types and ILD's of foam are in their mattresses. I think asking about the core temp of a computer is more like asking a mattress store where the steel of the springs was imported from or what temperature it was baked at... in other words these are indeed unusual details that one does not need to know. There may be SOMEONE who feels the need to know, and it would be nice if that info too were available, but I'd be happy if they'd just tell me the types and firmnesses and thicknesses of the foams. Since a mattress is made up of much fewer components than a computer, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to ask what types and firmnesses of foams are in it or what type and make of springs are in it. Those are two MOST BASIC components of a bed, not outlandish details for "power sleepers". Every bed has them and every bed's comfort is largely based on those 2 components: coils and foams. So it's not unreasonable for everyone to know those specific details. I was trying to use your computer analogy previously because you brought it up, and I do think going to buy a computer and not knowing the BASIC details of how much RAM and how much hard drive and what speed of chip it has, is similar to asking what type of firmnesses of foam a mattress has. But your question about core temps is exagerrated, I think. These things WOULD be important to using a computer for gaming or editing, BUT again, anyone really into that would be buying a higher end computer and I bet that info is available even at Best Buy if you are willing to wait a day or two for them to call the company etc. or if you call the company as I called Englander and the Englander factory (with almost no info given). I just don't think that computers are the best analogy to mattresses. I wish someone would come up with a more similar product to compare mattresses to; to me it's more like buying a blanket or comforter or clothing or shoes maybe. But unfortunately those aren't good analogies either because shoes and comforters usually are much much less $ than a mattress. Anything I spend a third or more of my life with, on an intimate basis, laying down with it every night with it next to my body, I think I am entitled to know quite a bit about!  |
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This whole business of trying to analogize a mattress to anything is dodging the issue of this conversation. The whole point of this thread is the idea that the mattress industry does not want to say specifically what is in their product. They do not want the buying public to be able to price shop a mattress. This is the reason that they maintain the “naming convention” of all their mattresses from one distributor to another. The truth is the major manufacturers of mattresses do not want you to really know what you’re purchasing. They don’t want you to be adequately informed so that you can compare it to some other companies mattress and the price thereof. Go to any one of the major manufacturers of 100% organic natural latex mattresses and you find all kinds of information that is quite specific to your purchase. When the major manufacturers do this, then I will believe that they want to compete in the marketplace and do right by their customers. As far as I’m concerned, comparing mattresses to computers and shoes, or anything else, has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion at hand. This message was modified Sep 9, 2009 by eagle2
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Alright I've concluded my experiment. I called three local mattress stores around town that all carried Sealy products. I posed as a mattress shopper and told them I was interested in a Sealy Posturepedic Signature series bed. I asked them the following questions: - What type of coil is in the mattress and can you describe it to me? - What is the gauge of the coil? - What types of foams are in the mattress? - What kind of ticking is in the mattress? Every single one of places I called gave me the correct information to these four questions. One guy had to ask another salesman for the gauge of the coil. This information is enough for 99% of the consumer world to make a buying decision. Just for Jim though I asked the following followups -Can you tell me the exact thickness of each layer of foam? -Can you tell me the ILDs of the PU, PE, and Latex and the Density of the Memory Foam? Two of the places knew the thickness of each layer. One guy wasn't sure but said he could find out for me. One of the three places knew the density of the memory foam. None of them knew the ILDs. I asked them whether they'd ever been asked the ILD of the foam before. They said no. So those are the conclusions of my experiment. The basic information is there. The salesguy is happy to give it to you. So far as the small technical details go, I wonder how useful they are. All beds within a manufacturer are going to use the same ILD foam if it's called the same thing. For example, "Seal Supersoft Foam" is the same ILD regardless of the specific model of the bed it's in. So you can't use ILDs to shop within a manufacturer. Now they may vary between manufacturers but how much use is that? Let's say for example you're comparison a Sealy and a Simmons mattress. All the foam layers are the same except the Talalay in the Simmons is 30 and the Talalay in the Sealy is 25. What does this information tell you? You might attempt to interpret this as saying that the Simmons will be a firmer bed and the Sealy a softer. You'd be wrong. The individual coil system in the Simmons will give it a sinkier, softer feeling despite the fact that the top layer is a higher ILD. Neither is universally more suportive. Now you might say that's not a fair comparison. After all if you do your research on the coils (information that IS available in the stores) you'd know that the interlaced coils of the Sealys are a deeper, firmer touch than the Individual coils of a Simmons. Okay, Let's take something closer. The Stearns and Foster Core series uses a Marshall coil that is the Non-Simmons version of the Simmons type coil. Let's take the same situation as above except with the softer ILD being on the Stearns. Well, they have the same basic coil design so SURELY the Stearns is softer, right? No. You'd be wrong again. The Stearns uses a 14ga coil to the Simmons 15.25ga thereby making it a considerably firmer touch. Even if we used the 13ga Simmons firm coils, the Stearns coils are STILL going to be firmer even with the softer ILD foam because of the different tempering process Stearns uses. My point is that knowing the ILD of the foam or the density of the memory foam doesn't really provide any information that would be useful in your buying decision. That, more than anything, is why it's not available. |
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Eagle, I agree with you, the foam analogy to computers or shoes or anything really doesn't work very well. Alex's point seems to be that since we don't know about EVERY technical detail of computers, we don't need to know it about mattresses either, and that most people don't even want to know what's in their mattress anyway. I disagree. I think that an educated mattress buyer should have the right to ask questions and get answers. I submit that your "experiment", Alex does not represent a cross section of mattress stores across the country. Don't know where you live but I doubt most of them have sales people as knowledgeable as you, or the ones you talked to. While I may not be able to tell how firm a mattress is by knowing the guage of springs and types of foams, I can get some idea of the Quality of the mattress if I can see that it does not have cheap PU foam in it. And as to the springs, if I know what type they are then I can lay on several different companies' beds with that type and see if I can feel the differences. Thus I may come to realize "I like a good firm offset coil", or "I like a good soft pocket coil" (though personally I am skeptcial that these hold up very long so would be reluctant to buy one even if I liked it). If I know how the spring is made and tempered etc. I can also find out from people on forums like these, who also have back problems similar to mine, what works for them, and try to buy the same type of coil system. You see, knowledge is power. Knowing what is in a mattress helps the educated consumer to make an informed decision - knowledge plus experience of how it feels. I stand firmly by my opinion that the mattress industry should be forced to reveal what is in their mattresses, give as much detail as possible so people who care can make an informed choice. If I don't want low quality pu foam in my bed (and who does?) then I should be able to easily see where the price point is at which there will be no cheap pu foam. If I want pure HR foam and latex in my bed, then I should be able to look around at the store and see if there are any that have only HR foam and latex. If I further want to know if it's a 28 or 36ILD latex, I should be able to find out - at LEAST if I ask (i.e. it would not HAVE to be printed on a card next to the bed, necessarily). What eagle said is true: When I went to look at latex and organic beds, I was told exactly what was in them, the types of foams, the types of springs, the material of the cover, the ILD of the latex... But the mattress companies (S brands) do not want to tell us, in fact they seem to go out of their way to not allow us to compare one mattress to another from store to store. Alex, I wonder if you'd care to comment on WHY the mattress companies have different names at different stores. When did that start and why? And is it really a PROBLEM for a mattress company to print out a spec sheet and say what types and thicknesses and ILD's of foams are used? Is it that difficult to do? If not, then what would the reason for not doing it be, other than to keep that info from being known? My main thing about buying mattresses is that I would not want to buy anything that had cheap non-supportive pu foam in it. On a positive note, I stopped in briefly at a Serta store the other day. I told the guy I was not interested in buying right now but just was researching and had some questions. He wasn't busy so he offered to play along. I asked him what kinds of springs were used in the different Serta models. Lo and behold, he had examples of the 2 types of springs used and he explained them to me. I then asked what would be the firmest bed he had and he told me, and I then asked what type of foam it had on top. He honestly told me that it was "just regular pu foam". So I assume from what he said that it would be very similar to the Englander above. It seems that finding a bed that does not have a bunch of PU foam on it is pretty hard unless it has a bunch of memory foam instead. My take on memory foam is that unless it's Tempurpedic, it breaks down VERY fast. By "break down" I mean what Kait said in the tother thread, that it stops being supportive. There may be little or no visible difference, but I can feel after as little as 2-5 nights, that it has lost some of its ability to support me (I am around 180 and 5'10".) Anyway, I was impressed with the fact that the guy had models of the springs to show me, and was honest about some of his beds just having PU foam in them. I did not ask what type of pu foam was in it but the way he said it seemed to indicate that it was low quality pu foam. Next time I am in the area and if he's just sitting there looking lonely I'm going to go in and ask him a few more questions, see if he has anything wtih HD or HR foam in it without the cheap pu foam, and see if he knows what ILD's. |
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Jim, I'll leave Eagle and yourself to your crusade then. Perhaps you'll change the industry from this forum. In regards to mattresses with different names, the manufacturers DO put the basic model of the mattress on the foot of the bed. You can use these models to cross shop. In Simmons they're called Classic, World Class, Exceptionale, and Black. In Sealy they're called Premier, Reserve, Signature, and Natural Origins. Now there are some minor differences between beds within a specific model. For example, one World Class might use dacron while the other uses silk and wool in the ticking. One Exceptionale might have a latex top while the other has a memory foam but these differences are obvious and usually printed on the card next to the bed. For the most part the beds are similar enough for you to comparison shop. Also no retailer that I've ever come in contact with that has a price match policy in this industry requires that the bed be the same name. Same features and manufacturer is all that's needed. -Alex |