MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Guess what? Englander is no better than the S brands (imho)... As you may know, I bought the Englander (Malibu Firm) only for the springs. I PLANNED to give it a "foam-ectomy", getting rid of the junky cheap foam. But I wanted to see how long it might be comfortable before I did surgery on it. Well, after about 4 nights I determined that it was not good at all for my back. So I did surgery on it tonight.  I'm going to adda link to or post pictures of the surgery in the near future, right here in this thread. I did expect more from Englander... I opened it up and was shocked to see that they had NO - ZERO - ZILCH!!! - good firm foam inside!  What it had was 3 layers of 7/16" very soft, white pu foam on top of the springs. That's ALL! NO firm foam, no support, NO WONDER it was hurting my back, and no wonder if you look around the web you can find dozens of posts about how people's Englander mattresses started hurting their back within a week to a month... just like the "S" brands... On top of the 1 and 5/16 inches of soft junky pu foam, there was the whatchacallit, the top sewn into tufts, whatever they call that thing. (What kind of a mattress expert am I??! I can never remember the name of that top piece!  ) I removed that too because it's just the same cheap junky foam sewn together with a cloth and tufted...(By the way, if you buy the Malibu PLUSH instead of the Malibu FIRM, know what you get? Instead of 1 and 5/16" of junky pu foam, you get about 5" of junky pu foam! That must REALLY hurt people's backs!) This kind of mattress construction - which all the major companies are using, now, STINKS! PU foam = Peee Eww!  So, I took off ALL the foam, and then replaced it with this, from bottom up: 1" of zoned HR foam: top = medium, middle = firm, and bottom = very firm (feet area doesn't really matter, imho) 3/4" of medium-soft latex (Talalay - not certain of the ILD - maybe 24 or 28?) 1" of Venus foam So it's about the same amount of foam as it had - now 2 and 3/4 instead of just 2" - but the main difference is that now I have QUALITY foam on top of the springs, foam that gives SUPPORT as well as softness. Will post more as the experiment progresses... I'll be playing around with this combination, see how it feels. My wife has something very similar to this on top of her Sealy springs, and she likes it pretty well.- P.S. the springs seem to feel pretty good. I can't say for sure though until I've slept on them with good foam for a while This message was modified Sep 5, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Alex, you seem very professional, knowledgeable and patient and customers would probably be well served to buy a mattress from you. However, I think you're overlooking the obvious dissatisfaction that many people here are expressing and that it indicates something is wrong. While the focus of this thread has become about the lack of specific information about construction, I think the more central problem is a lack of quality construction that will last. For example, my wife and I spent a lot of time and effort purchasing a quality mattress less than 3 years ago. I'm a huge product researcher and have had a subscription to Consumer Reports for over 20 years. We bought a top of the line Sterns and Foster and spending a lot of time laying on mattresses. For the last year we've been dealing with ever increasing depressions in the mattresses that are causing a lot of discomfort for both of us. We finally complained to the store and they had an official reviewer visit us. He was a knowledgeable pleasant person that carefully measured the depressions. Using his method (with no weight on the bed) he measured a 7/8" depression. He said the warranty required 1.5" depression for replacement. I can't imagine how badly the bed would sleep to meet that requirement. We have a combined weight of less than 300 lb. He also said that he saw an incredible number of mattresses that were not meeting life expectancies. He thought the problem was with the change of making mattresses from the bottom up, instead of inside out. Previously mattresses could be flipped which would allow the padding time to recover and last much longer. Now they just wear out. Anyway, back to the OP --> Thanks so much for the detailed description and pictures!! Being a DYI guy I was going to try this. You've given me a lot more confidence and knowledge on how to proceed. Questions: 1) Is putting the bottom layer of different zones a common practice? It seems it means you couldn't rotate the mattress. 2) Is it possible to just turn the mattress over and build up new padding so that the mattress doesn't have to be cut? Or does the way the springs are manufactured prevent this? This message was modified Sep 11, 2009 by twalkman
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Twalkman, My experience too. Not only that, but my person told the company that my issue was that I didn't have the proper support from my frame, which was total bs because I had the exact set up that their website and glossy materials said to have. Grrrrr. I have been told that after Hurricane Katrina the foam industry had some bad foam out there for awhile because the foam was primarily made in that area, but who knows. Does not explain current beds. Kait |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
| Okay Jim you have had 10 days now on your setup. How is it feeling now? |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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Leo3 wrote: Okay Jim you have had 10 days now on your setup. How is it feeling now? It's still WAY better than a) my pure foam mattress and b) the way it came to me from the store. I'm still experimenting with various foam combinations, but I think I'm starting to figure some things out as far as getting it to be as "perfect" as it can be with these springs. These springs may not be the best for me... or they may... I am not sure. All I know is that this is the best set up I've had in years... it's just not "perfect" for me yet. But remember I have a VERY messed up back and shoulders and neck... so it may not be even possible for me to reach "perfection". But yeah, way better now. Springs are best for my back. Quality springs + quality foam = quality bed. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
| Have you posted your mattress surgery pictures? I'm looking for them! :) |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
| Jim, tell me what changes have you made. I can learn from this, I have a torn rotator cuff, problem hip, and if I am not careful with getting the bed to soft for these ailments a bad back! I am glad it is an improvement at least. I too wonder if I will ever have perfection. If my hips and shoulders are happy, my back is not. If my back is happy the hips and shoulders hurt! |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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BeddyBye, the pix are HERE - make sure you choose to expand this very thread to see ALL! TWalkman, no, you cannot start from the bottom I don't think. I am pretty sure the springs nowadays are designed for using only the top. If you have an old double sided mattress, then okay... As to zoning, you can still turn the mattress from head to foot, just by keeping the middle the same and making sure the upper 3rd and lower 3rd are the same. Since in my experience the lower 3rd does not matter, you can put it the same as the top 3rd. Some swear by zoning and some don't need it. I am not convinced I need it and in fact that is one of the changes I will make. Leo, I'm a very odd case as far as sleeping which is why I HAVE to have a DIY mattress! I have the same issues you mentioned: if I get it good for my shoulder, then my lower back sometimes hurts and vice versa. It's hard to get it right all over. Then, sometimes I get it right for a few nights, then it hurts me again... It seems my body is always changing; i.e; one part hurts more one night, another part hurts more another night and it's hard to keep up with it. I have a ton of different foams of different ILD's and thicknesses from experimenting over the years. Many of them I've cut into 3rds so I can zone or not zone. So in changing my mattress I sometimes put memory foam UNDER latex, or sometimes even memory foam under the HR foam, with latex on top, or maybe some memory foam just under the latex. Right now I am going to experiment with an extra layer of 1" HR foam just like the layer I have now, except it will be 2" instead of 1" and maybe only the bottom 1" will be zoned. How's that for fancy?! I just try to think outside the box, and maybe I'll make a great discovery some day. Maybe I'll be the George Washington Carver of mattresses! So the experiment goes on. Actually last night the configuration I had - and how my body was - caused me to wake up a little sore. So I'll try something different. I keep trying various things but I am almost convinced that I will NEVER have a mattress that is great for more than a few days or a week. I constantly have to change it. Maybe I'm insane.  But I don't really think so. I just think I have back /neck/ shoulder problems that no doctor has been able to diagnose or fix but it's obvious even to them that I DO have real, physical problems, they just don't know what they are or how to fix them. So, as a result of this, since I cannot adjust my back/shoulders to normalcy, I am left with just adjusting my mattress to accomodate my back/shoulder abnormalcy! But I keep thinking... "maybe SOME day I'll find The Answer!"  This message was modified Sep 16, 2009 by jimsocal
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Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
| Keep trying, Jim! You're doing a great job, and you're bound to find the perfect configuration at some point. :) |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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No Jim you are not nuts if you are in pain, you are in pain. I am trying zoning, I cut my firm latex and soft latex and memory foam in thirds. I have the firm at the lowest third since that doesn't matter. But I don't have loads of different latex and foams to try. For two months I was happy with my setup, then suddenly my hips and shoulders were hurting. That is disappointing when you think you got it right. By the way I have 23ILD talalay latex and that is the softest I think I would want. I have the Brylane latex and that is too soft, you just sink in to the next layer and don't get the benefits of anything (that is my opinion). You were looking for even softer than 20ILD I thought I read. Just my opinion. |
Re: MATTRESS SURGERY: performing a "foam-ectomy" on my Englander mattress - w/ photos
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You might be right, Leo, about a softer latex being too soft. But it is one thing I've never tried so I feel I owe it to myself to try it. I would only use 1 or 1½ ", no more. How thick is your soft latex? Wanna sell it? I know what you mean about thinking you have it right and then finding a month or so down the road that it begins to hurt. I have had that happen several times. One general rule I am finding (this works for ME, and I guess it only applies to those who feel the need for Springs under them) is that if I put too much foam on top of my springs, it does not work at all. I have to access the flexibility of the springs and if I put too much foam I lose that. It could be that some day I may try pocket coils again if I can find someone who makes a good one for not too much money, or if I could find a very SLIGHTLY used one to buy, to try. Two nights ago, just for an experiment I added another inch of HR foam to the mix, so I had 2" of HR foam instead of one inch under my 3/4" of latex and 1" of Venus foam. It was just too much foam, it killed my back! I then took the extra 1" of HR foam layer out , and added my wool mattress cover, and it was much better. But now it seems to lack just a LITTLE more softness. I am going to try an old crappy 3/4" memory foam layer or even a 3/4"PU layer, just to add a little more softness and see if that helps. But it seems that for me, anything more than 1" of medium firm or firmer foam is just too much. 1" seems to be the right amount, followed by some softer foams as "toppers".* *However, it COULD be that if I had latex instead of HR foam, I could go with a little more of it...? I'd also like to try various latex ILD's and types (such as Dunlop) but I don't have them and hate to spend the $ right now. This message was modified Sep 18, 2009 by jimsocal
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