Mattress Forum

Just so you know I have 38 years of mattress manufacturing experience - and I worked for two of the big S's in So. Calif.  That said, here is what some pretty savy mattress makers have taught me over the years...

Support - for the most part, come from the spring steel inside an innerspring mattress.  Of course in a latex mattress the latex does the supporting.  Most of the industry defines support as pushing back against the weight of your body and it's heavyest parts and the natural movements of your body.  That is where the memory foam people's feelings get hurt.  There isn't much pushing back getting done iwth memory foam - but they say you pick up resistance as you compress (sink in) the foam; and there may be something to this!  Generaly, I try ot keep support needs with Innerspring or Latex, and hight comfort needs will bring in memory foam.

That said, if you have two mattresses (innerspring) side by side with the same innerspring inside but different types of upholsrty (with out latex of course), then while you may have different amounts or types of comfort, you will have the same support.

Comfort - comes from the type and amount of upholstry on top of the innerspring.  Latex is a little more complicated but this will hold pretty much true for this, also.  Whether you are looking at a Pillow Top or a Euro Top can be more or less comfortable, might even might be more difficult to turn over or move on, but generaly it won't drastically change the support.

So I don't see a great deal of value in buying a firm mattress and then trying to make it more comfortable buy adding padding at extra cost, when you could have bought a plusher mattress set to start with at the same price.

Sounds like you have got most of the hard part of looking for a new set over with - you seem to have an idea of the comfort that will make you happy.  I would suggest you buy the the best level set you can afford with the comfort you want and give it six weeks to break in and let you get use to it, and you will be happy.

By the way 8 - 10 years for a mattress is just about right because in ten years you will not be the same person you are now!  Your comfort needs will change and you support needs will most certainly change!

I'm sure I have pretty much irritated all the other contributors to this forum - read their responses and take it all in.  They will all have valid poins of view based on their levels of experience.  I have learned a few things on this forum - so they are good!  I'm just saying I have built thousands of mattresses, designed hundreds, purchased for two different mattress compinies, and sold a few mattresses in my day - just and old mattress guy trying to share my knowledge!

Gunman

I absolutely agree with you here fwiw. The support factor of memory foam is very low (even though it does vary by brand, none of them really support). The further you sink into memory foam, the more it "melts away" so even with the better and thicker layers of memory foam you don't get the same support levels as you do with better support layers. Even if you do pick up "resistance" deeper into the layer, it's still not support in the true sense of the word but more compression resistance. To my knowledge, none of them have a support factor above 2 and even this would be unusual.

Having said all that ... this all came from talking to a lot of people whose opinion I came to trust and there was quite some degree of consensus on this. Like you they had been around for a long time and had a lot of "real world" experience. All I did was listen closely, figure out the "why" of what they were telling me, and learned to trust it when many people who knew more than I did shared the same general ideas.

Real experience like yours ... combined with a willingness to share that experience ... is really rare and truly welcome.

Phoenix

Added soon after: Well wouldn't you know it. I was just reading a chart about Aerus and they claim a support factor of 2.6 and even give traditional visco 2.4 and competitive open cell visco 2.2. I just don't believe this unless the testing was done without any heating (probably was). This would also be coming from a very low ILD starting point (meaning it also wouldn't take much to compress it to 65%) but even so, I have a hard time believing that this would be the way it would perform in the real world. I think too that in the case of memory foam that talking about support factor is misleading in the first place and that temperature range and sensitivity and the length of time an impression is held would be more meaningful. Buckling column gel would also have pretty much meaningless support factor numbers as well and if the column buckled with a 25% depression then the support factor would be close to 1 (same pressure to get it to 65% compression as it took to get it to 25%). I still think that talking about memory foam as "supportive" is misleading.

The midrange of my budget is $1000. 

Indiana Mattress Company is real close to where I work, and a coworker actually recommended them to me.  He's had one from them for six months and is happy.  Another coworker has one of three S's, I forget which, that is six months old and he says it is already collapsing in the middle.  I'll probably try to visit them this week.

Holder Bedding is a little further away and I found them via Google.  Is it just me, or are most of the sites pretty short on technical information about the beds?  I guess that's part of what makes the decision so hard for me - I feel like companys are trying to deceive me.  Heh, and they probably are ;)

For the steel gauge, is under 14 generally acceptable?

Guage of the wire: (the smaller the guage thicker the wire). 12-17 seems to be the typical range. Whether it is tempered or not also plays a role in it's strength and "wearability".

Number of working turns: 5 seems to be recognized as good with 6 being better

Type of spring: (a lot of misleading information and "branding" here) but in general bonnell and it's variations (including the hinged or offset versions), continuous coil and it's variations, and pocket coil (marshall coil) and it's variations.

Coil count: In the case of continuous coil it is usually given as an equivalent as they are really not individual coils.

How the coils are joined together: This doesn't apply to pocket coils but bonnell and continuous coils have different methods of being attached to each other or different directions of attachment. The different methods lead to either "indivuality" (each coil bears a greater proportion of a load) or "group support" (more coils are load bearing at any point of the mattress). The continuous coils in general are the most "group effort" type of coil which is why they are often considered the strongest. The different directions of attachment can lead to more or less motion separation between partners. End to end means more motion separation and side to side means less motion separation.

Posturizing: This means that coils either have different guages (stronger) where more support is needed or that more coils are used where more support is needed. Similar to "zoning" in a foam mattress

Edge support: This means that the edge of the mattress is supported in one way or another (there are different methods) so it is more comfortable to sit on and so the edges don't wear out sooner.

In their ability to conform it seems that the order (best to worst) is pocket or marshall coils - bonnell coils - continuous coils

In their overall basic "strength" (what some people call support) it seems that the order is reversed

My personal opinion is that true support comes from a combination of strength and ability to conform to the body and it's position as you sleep which means that there is no one design that is best for everyone.

Side sleepers in general need more conformability (they have more parts sticking out) which can either come from the upper parts of the mattress or a pocket coil type of construction. It also seems that more things can go wrong with pocket coils in terms of both the coils getting pushed away from vertical in their "nest" and in terms of durability. There are different ways to construct them. Some people will prefer offset (hinged bonnell) coils for this reason and some of the higher end mattresses use them. This means that bonnell coils can be found in the lower ends (they are the cheapest to make and have been around the longest) while their variants can be found in some of the higher end mattresses. There is a lot of hype around coils.

With more modern mattress construction where the middle and upper layers of a mattress are thicker and more "active", there is often less importance placed on the qualities of the coils and more importance placed on it's overall strength and how long it will last. This depends on how thick and "active" the upper layers are and how much a person will "go through" the upper layers. The thinner the upper layers and the less "active" they are in their materials, the more important the innerspring becomes.

Innerspring mattresses are usually designed to work with a boxspring as part of their optimal design. Foam core mattresses need a solid or slatted foundation ... not a boxspring. Having said that, some places charge obscene amounts for their boxsprings which is a major profit center for them.

Nothing replaces your own personal experience in terms of what will be comfortable and supportive. There seems to be a lot of evidence and there was even a study of sorts done that indicated that what people felt about a mattress after laying on it for 15 minutes was pretty indicative of how they would feel in the long term. This just goes to show that most people don't actually spend even 15 minutes laying on a mattress in the store (usually much less). 15 minutes in a store can seem like a long time.

Research on materials and construction and the experience of other people will help you determine how long a mattress will stay supportive and comfortable or even in some cases how long it will take to become comfortable (break in). Some mattresses need breaking in and some need little to none.

$1000 should get you a really nice mattress probably equivalent to at least $2000 in most stores.

Phoenix

An innerspring mattress ... 2 sided ... with latex on both sides and good quilting material

or

An all latex mattress (this may take you over your 1000 a bit but not by too much and probably in the upper end of your budget). You may have to give up quiltable latex or pay attention to the thickness of layers and the quilting materials (wool, cotton, fabrics etc) to stay in your budget. 2 sided here would still be desireable but not as important

or

If you are so inclined ... a good quality memory foam or latex memory foam combination. This would be a little harder to "get right" but should be well within your budget. I personally wouldn't go in this direction but that is only because of my own preferences. They can certainly be very comfortable for some people. If you go in this direction, then you would have a choice as to what you use for support. Either latex (most expensive), springs, or HR polyfoam (which in this case should last at least as long as the memory foam). If you incorporate memory foam then you would be looking at 1 sided.

Out of these ... (latex, springs, memory foam) memory foam would tend to be the least durable, especially in densities less than 5 lbs.

My personal guideline was no more than 1" of polyfoam in a mattress and even this should be avoided if possible.

Polyfoam in the top layers is worse than polyfoam in the bottom (support) layers and more than 1" of HR polyfoam in the bottom layers would have been fine if I'd gone in the memory foam direction since it will last longer than the memory foam anyway.

Phoenix

For the third option, would something like this one be in the neighborhood: http://www.rockymountainmattress.com/cottonwood-9-p-33.html How can I tell how firm or plush feeling something like that is?  I did like the feel of the tempurpedics, but didn't spend as much time due to the price.

Holder Bedding lists their all latex mattresses at around $1400 and I really haven't seen anything below that price, at least not premade beds.  I did like the feel of the firmer latex mattress at the store.  It was a "good different' compared to the individual coils that liked.

Would telling one of these small shops that I want "An innerspring mattress ... 2 sided ... with latex on both sides and good quilting material,"  yeild an unreasonable price?  Would that be something I want to do, or should I choose from what's offered?

My current mattress is probably past being worn out, but I haven't replaced it mainly due to the confusion of it all.

If you are comfortable with memory foam and know that you really like it, then I would go there as well ... but I'm not ... even though I do like the feel of certain combinations (mentioned in another thread).

So the comparison would really be between latex and memory foam in terms of what feels good to you..... just to simplify matters ... Unless of course you want to go in the direction of an "old style mattress" with cotton, horsehair, wool etc over springs ... and that's the topic of another thread here.

The link to Rocky Mountain is a memory foam mattress with no latex in it. 4lb memory foam over 2 different densities of HR foam (in the upgrade). Good for what it is but again you need to be sure you like memory foam if you choose to go in that direction. I don't have any experience with the Bayer memory foam so I don't know it's specific qualities. I personally believe that Foamex memory foam that uses VPF technology is the "best" but that there are other very good memory foams as well ... including Tempurpedic of course.

The feeling of memory foam has been described as more sleeping in the mattress while latex is more sleeping on the mattress.

This feeling of sleeping in the mattress can be lessened with different toppers and/or different types of memory foam (some are less "visco elastic" than others). You can see examples of this in many threads here.

Memory foam and latex have similar pressure relieving abilities although the edge here would go to memory foam.

Latex has a much better ability to support which is why memory foam requires layers of HR polyfoam underneath it.

Latex is much more durable ... you can expect it to last much longer than even 5 lb memory foam

Some people have trouble with the smell and/or outgassing of memory foam (I am one of them) but there is a wide range of variance here between different types of memory foam. Latex also has a smell in some cases but it is much different and seems to be much milder (it's been described as a sweet smell) and less offensive to most people. Both go away although some memory foams take a while.

Some people sleep hot with memory foam (it is much less open celled than latex) and again I am one of them but there are also much more breathable memory foams available now (Foamex Aerus for example). You can also alleviate this to some extent by the layers and materials you put over the memory foam, but this changes the feel of the memory foam as well. Some people also find that they sleep hotter with any foam including latex although this is much more rare. Anything that "cradles" you or that you sink into can sleep hotter than something that doesn't for some people.

Depending on the type and "memory" of the memory foam you are using ... and depending on it's temperature sensitivity ... some people have difficulty changing position when they sleep. The foam in the new position is harder and has to "melt" into the new position. Again depending on the temperature sensitivity of some types of memory foam ... some people find it gets hard or changes it's quality in a cool or cold room.

My best suggestion is to go with a feeling you know you like using materials you can trust. If you are seriously considering memory foam, try it out enough to know for sure that you like it. It is very different from other types of mattress and this can be a good thing or not depending on individual taste and comfort. Latex is closer to the feeling of a traditional or typical mattress than memory foam is.

There are other considerations including how important natural materials are to you that may affect your decision. Latex can be "all natural" while memory foam can't. Personally, I like natural materials, and I believe that in many cases they are superior, but I'm not a purist and won't pay too much more for them.

Your question would be well worth asking a manufacturer. I asked similar questions (usually though about all latex mattresses) a lot. I would certainly make a point of phoning Indiana Mattress and talk to them as well if you haven't already. If you do talk to holder bedding ... ask the old guy there if he has mailed me my information. He'll probably be very surprised that a random conversation on the phone has any connection to a walk in customer lol.

I'm sure (and I hope) you will get many other different and equally valid opinions on the comparison between latex and memory foam.

Phoenix

I just wanted to ad one thing that Phoenix touched on, and that is that latex does indeed last longer, both as a whole mattress and as part of the upholstry layers.  Not only do I have some experience in this industry but I grew up in mattress factories ( My father was in the industry for 55 years).  Any way about 3 years ago I brought a very respected line of latex mattresses on my store - they are great! - in part I also wanted to replace my father's latex set I knew he had had for some time.  He later told me that the set I gave him was the third set of latex he has had since 1947 - the other two were also latex - that averages out to about 30 years of service for the previous two sets.  The thing is there really was not much wrong with the set I took away from his home other than age!

I have never slept on a latex core mattress but the set I have now is a tempered steel pocketed coil with 3" of latex (24 ILD Talalay) over 2" of visco (4.7 lbs. Foamex) with a fortrell - silk - cashmere blend set up as a fillbox which has been tufted on a 18" square pattern and it is heaven!  Sorry they don't do the fillbox any more - just too much labor cost!

Thanks for reading...

Gunman

Not much typing in this one :)

Your mattress sounds wonderful.

Phoenix